Hogging out on a shaper

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Got to be a quickie because I'm away for the day but I thought I would share with fellow newbie shaper users

I've been using hss and carbide with various levels of success and failure in recent months and there was one perticular tool which stood out

It was only through pure blind luck, literally, that I spotted the writing on the side of the tool while wearing glasses, which I normally don't wear, it was cobalt toolsteel

Cobalt toolsteel seems to be hugely resistant to both wear and heat degradation, especially when compared to ordinary hss, and this is perfect for shaper tooling because of the huge pressures and temperatures exerted at the very tip of a shaper tool

While cobalt toolsteel is no harder than ordinary toolsteel, with all things being equal it appears to have a hugely superior tool life

edit: Its the M35 5% easy to grind stuff I have

Edited By Ady1 on 04/04/2015 12:05:50

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Going to take a few days for this, slicing up a 6 inch billet of steel to make some more steel vices

The original has been so useful I'm making at least one more

[IanTParticipant @iant]

I have a rectangular length of cobalt tool steel somewhere Ady but I will have to make up some form of tool holder to use it in the Acorn. Not top of the list at the moment – but I will give it a go. Thanks

Regards,

IanT

[Colin HeseltineParticipant @colinheseltine48622]

Hi There,

Is that a mod to your shaper to use it as a power hacksaw. Looks a good idea for large sizes of material.

Colin

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

It's a mod for moderate sized chopping up. This job is going to be too big to finish on the shaper, the last inch in the centre/middle will need done by hand, it's actually right on the edge of the envelope for what can be done.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

An extreme example of what can be done with cobalt tooling, 25 intermittent cuts per stroke

I need a bunch of squarebar to fabricate a dividing unit for my shaper, and I had a pile of approx 40mm threaded bar doing nothing, so…

I only resharpened the cobalt tool once during the entire process (3 done so far, more needed)

Shapers are fabulous workhorses, but be careful with them, IMO they are way more dangerous than a lathe

[mark costello 1Participant @markcostello1]

Ady1, You folks across the pond sometimes make Me sad and grateful at the same time. I like to use up odd pieces of steel also, but that seems to be the hard way around, sad to do all that work for common steel. Glad that I can usually scrounge up something suitable with less work. PS, I enjoy running a shaper also.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Definitely a long road for a short cut, I agree. The problem is I'm going to need about a decade of practice to get any good at this sport and produce some decent work.

I don't mind so much if I produce sub-standard work with gash metal from the scrappie plus I'm learning as I go

I get really hacked off if I pay top dollar for decent bits of metal… then make a pigs ear of a job

I can get about a hundredweight of steel for 10quid from a scrap merchant which is great for novice work

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Mark – as you will already know the Shaper is very good at cleaning up old metal – partly because it uses cheap tooling (that can be quickly re-sharpened) but also because it will tackle stuff (crud, hard spots, pitting) that would make many mills have a fit. I have quite a stock of well rusted lumps sitting down my Shed waiting for redemption.

And of course those who tell me "Shapers are too slow and simply obsolete these days" forget that I can be using my shaper to clean up materials in the background whilst I potter around with something else nearby. I certainly don't try that with my mills or lathes. So apart from a few watts and possibly a bit of wear and tear – the Shaper is ideal for this kind of 'background' task.

Inside every old flat iron, sash weight or skip find – there's a bit of brand new gleaming stock metal just waiting to appear!

IanT

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

A job like the above shows me that I can now produce things like a large hex bar whenever I need it, something which has become increasingly difficult to find in recent years.

I have also adjusted the hacksaw to maximise the stroke, cutting off the end part for the lantern and moving it forwards by a couple of inches until the back of the hacksaw almost touches the clapper slide, this has made a big improvement over the original setup. Even a giant job now has a decent stroke

The hacksaw itself looks a bit knackered now after all my messing about but it gives me a proven template for making a nice tidy replacement which will work 100%

[mark costello 1Participant @markcostello1]

The only thing wrong with owning My shaper (7" Rhoades) is it's a 7" and I would like a 12" or 16". No room to expand. So I'll make 7" size chips. Oh well.

[robjon44Participant @robjon44]

Ady 1, I have to disagree that shapers are more dangerous than a lathe, a lathe even in sizes found in home workshops operate a much higher speeds of rotation and for the most part have exposed chucks, lead screws & feedshafts & are big fans of creating lethal birds nests of razor sharp swarf which some people feel duty bound to remove with a swarf rake, I would say that 95% of the accidents I have seen in the last 50 years were attributable to this cause. The shaper on the other hand has the majority of its moving parts covered as they do not need to be accessible during operation, both ends of the ram & the cutting tool being the exceptions to this sweeping generalisation. Therefore if you stand at the side of the machine operating the toolslide with your right hand & you left hand in your pocket jingling your small change that covers most eventualities. Swarf is cut into relatively small pieces that depart quite quickly & will eventually fill your workshop to waist height & also result in the domestic authority bringing a fine ( large) example & asking if it belongs to you. This can be prevented by a post mounted catcher box capable of being swung to the offside of the machine when loading work or setting up, add on extensions to 3 sides are good & handles even better so that it can be lifted off & emptied in your swarf bin. All of the shapers in the toolroom where I worked for part of my apprenticeship were fitted with them, as is my own Acorntools (Atlas) 7 inch model with extremely heavy duty all welded stand. Remarkably my own example came from the toolroom of a local Rolls Royce subcontractor whose management informed me the machine had altogether too many places for the "unwary" to stick their fingers! It follows therefore that it is an ill wind that blows nobody any good. Bob

[IanTParticipant @iant]

I agree Robjon – a perfectly safe machine – unless of course you are tempted to touch that nice shiny surface you are in the process of cutting – just to make sure it feels as smooth as it looks.

Then it could be quite nasty – but as long as you can resist this temptation – then all will be well. Any machine can be potentially dangerous if not treated with respect.

IanT

PS – That's at least three Acorntools 7" I've seen mentioned here recently. Did you get the nice Acorntools cast side panel with yours??

[richardandtracyParticipant @richardandtracy]

I have a little Boxter 8". It is a great little machine and absolutely fascinating to watch.

I do think it's dangerous though. It moves so slowly that you begin to get complacent. I read somewhere once that the biggest cause of accidents was reaching across the ram. I have done this a couple of times and nearly been caught by it. I hope I have learnt my lesson.

Mine has a nearly rigid belt, which will only drive it at slowest speed, 35 rpm I think. This tends to be a serious speed limitation, especially as the belt slips if I take more than a 0.002" feed. Still, it's fun to watch. For hours…

Regards,

Richard

[robjon44Participant @robjon44]

Ian T, yes I do have the cover plate with Acorntools cast on it, & also the American manufacturers handbook & spare parts list which I downloaded years ago, the factory where I acquired mine was originally a shadow site built in a quarry in WW2 to make hydraulic mountings for 20mm cannons on gunboats, it became an RR subcontractor after the war & I worked there in 1966 making parts for the BAC 111 airliner. I believe that there are probably a lot more Atlas / Acorntools lathes around than shapers, however the lathe, shaper, milling machine & drill press were produced to address my own pet PIA, some dullard asking you to strip down a high production machine to make a one off, including I may add a £150,000 CNC lathe, there is a lot to be said for leaving a job in MY machines in my workshop until they are finished, cheers Bob H

[SaxalbyParticipant @saxalby]

Richard, On the assumption your "Boxter" is the same as my Boxford shaper, I had the same problem with mine when I first got it. The cause was the belt from the motor to the layshaft was poorly adjusted. After adjusting that it worked OK. Cant say what the max cut I can make is – but certainly a lot, lot more than 2 thou especially at low speed.

Barry

[richardandtracyParticipant @richardandtracy]

Barry,

Sorry, you're right. I came straight to this thread after watching an episode of 'Top Gear' on Dave when the Porsche Boxter was discussed. I blame it on my age: I have kids still at home & I get yakked at which mixes the brain seriously.

I think the problem is that the belt is ossified and seriously polished on its sides. I have to find somewhere that sells belts at a price I can afford, instead of the £40 odd that I've been quoted.

Regards

Richard

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Well it took 9 days and about 3 hours a day to finish that, plus 3 blades. One did 90percent of the work but there were 4 deep cuts and they all wandered once they got down to the final three quarters of an inch. That made the final cut, by hand, right in the centre, a real tuff job and I broke 2 blades before it finally came away.

That made the surface wonky, so I threw it onto the lathe for a quick facing off and pushed one of my shiny new cobalt tools into it.

30 seconds later I looked at myrounded flattened cobalt tool and swore gently, it was EN hardaswitchestits

The carbide took it down, slowly, but it didn't like intermittent cuts at all and made too much noise for my liking so I drilled it with hss and slapped it on the shaper

This time the cobalt tooling was fine and it's currently being shaved down for final finishing on the lathe

It's like a machineable stainless steel and the cutting noise sounds like tearing metal, even when a nice surface is being cut

The cobalt tooling didn't have a hope on the lathe, but has saved me on the shaper part of the job

[bodgeParticipant @bodge]

Ady

I tried doing that with shaper 7-8 yr ago it looks like it should work ! But it dont would have said so sooner , but only just went on line and signed in here yesterday , I think it could be done, lot of messing about though ! and its never going to be quick !! If your going to be doing stuff that size a uni-band saw maybe best option set up right with good blade 45 -60 mins,? . is the grade of steel your cutting known ? I put off buying one of said saws for ages , but wish id of done it sooner I dont want to spend what i dont have too , but it was worth it!

steve

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

If you're doing 4 inches or more in diameter on a regular basis then a bandsaw is definitely the way to go, a power hacksaw saves your muscles but it saws metal no faster than a human would on a good day

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

Agree with Ady1's last remark about power hacksaw.

Used one for cutting full lengths into 2-3ft for the shop, it was slow, BUT so much easier on the muscles.

I did cut the frames for Mona using muscle power, but when done, immediately bought a vertical bandsaw as all that muscle exercise just not my scene.

Wish I had that bandsaw now, as it had the blade welder on it.

Those generic H/V bandsaws hadn't been invented then, it being the '70-'80s.

Don't know how I would manage without the H/V now, as muscles would go on strike if I even think about sawing through anything thicker than 1/4", and even then they need forcing.

Geoff – Call me namby pamby, but I'm past caring

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

The origional 6 x 4 HV band saw was designed in USA in the late 1940s/early 50s for Sears (I think), the design was passed on to Taiwan late 50s/ earl 60s. Atlas Clausing produce a similar machine.

Ian S C

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

Ah thanks Ian, forgot about that.

Wheren't available in SA at the time to my knowledge, hence my comment.

I would have bought one pronto if they where.

Where they universally available as today I wonder.

Geoff – Carport cleanup and re-organising after yesterday.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Well I had to get this billet chopped up and I wasn't going to work my shaper for 9 days again just for a slice of steel, so I returned to my old original lathe system

In the absence of a dedicated machine this is by far the least wear and tear on my equipment

The cut got nice and deep before any adjusting was needed and a slice dropped off after the third cut

Accuracy/straightness was medium

Then came the facing off on the lathe, to save me using the shaper

5% cobalt- failed

Cleveland mo-max M42- failed

WKE 45 cobalt (tuff stuff and hard to grind)- failed

They all flattened like cheap chinese HSS

It's kinda strange because it can be drilled quite easily with cheapo hss drills

Anyway, King Carbide came to my rescue, yet again, and is doing the necessary intermittent facing off on this job. Just got to watch the chips, oh boy are they hot

Edited By Ady1 on 15/07/2015 14:05:49

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