Glr vertical boiler

[DismalduncParticipant @dismaldunc]

Hi chaps, I'm currently building my first boiler. The end plates are made and drilled (which was really good fun ) the tubes have a little ridge on them as per stans instructions and the bushes are made.

now I have to commence silver soldering but to be honest I'm a bit scared of cocking it up. From the practising with off cuts you do have to get the work REALLY hot . I've bought a sievert 19mm cyclone burner which is rated at 3kw. So I suppose the question is will this be hot enough? Also any handy tips will be gratefully received .

thanks in advance

dunc

[DismalduncParticipant @dismaldunc]

Well it’s time to light the blowtorch

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi Dunc,

Depends on the size of the boiler. Up to about 3" diameter I use a 19mm plumbers torch. The secret is not to let heat escape and use refractory materials to surround your work behind the work so as to retain and reflect the precious heat.

There was another thread recently about this subject and I was able to visit and help the guy who was having difficulty. I tend to feed the joint with a long rod and let the liquid solder follow the heat around the joint. Make sure that the joint is well fluxed and the area on both sides of the joint is protected with Tippex which will prevent the wasteful spreading of expensive soolder where it doesn't need to be.

Best regards

Terry

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

The thread I was refferring to is here: There are many others on the subject.

T

[DismalduncParticipant @dismaldunc]

Great stuff thanks Terry, I really should do a search before I jump in. That's a good helpful thread

[Bill DawesParticipant @billdawes]

Hi Dunc, I too am building the GLR vertical boiler. for various reasons it has been a long standing project so have not progressed too far but the following may be of help.

I soldered on the firehole ring and the firebox endplate quite successfully (as far as I can see anyway, the truth will out when it's finished and tested of course) Finally got round to soldering in the tubes and disaster (see my thread 'silver solder disaster&#39 The solder just did not run properly. One of the replies to my thread said it is best to solder from inside the firebox, as you will see the instructions with the boiler clearly shows it being soldered with the tubes standing up.

Following advice from fellow modellers and Keith at Cup Alloys (it was Cup solder) I have bought a neck tube burner and some wool insulation blanket. I am conviced now my problem was too much direct heat on the solder, not enough heat in the job. Will take more care at next attempt with insulation around the firebox. Not got round yet to try again, hopefully early in new year, be interesting to hear how you get on.

Regards

Bill D

[Bill DawesParticipant @billdawes]

PS. it was the 10.3kw burner I bought.

Bill D.

[SpringbokParticipant @springbok]

As Bill says have a word with Kieth I personally regard him as one of the countries leading experts when it comes to ME silver soldering.
Have a nice one
Bob

[Martin CooperParticipant @martincooper52042]

Hi Dunc

I used a Sievert 2941, which is 7kW. Soldering this boiler was pretty scary. Don't make the same mistake I did, and do it inside (the garage, not the house). Apart from the smoke alarm going off, after a few minutes of 7kW burning away there isn't much oxygen left – even with the garage door open.

You'll need welders gauntlets or something else substantial to protect your hands, and a bucket of water just in case.

As to whether a 3kW burner would do it… well, I am no expert at all. But it did take what seemed like an age to get the boiler up to temperature. So it would take even longer with a 3kW burner. I would play safe and go for a bigger burner.

Here's a photo of my arrangement. The whole job is surrounded by vermiculite bricks and I found an old barbeque to act as a hearth.

I put rings of solder around each tube, and I think I had a length of silver solder in my other hand to touch it up.

I have some more photos if you would like more.

Martin

[DismalduncParticipant @dismaldunc]

Hi chaps, thanks for the advice and yes Martin more pics would be great, I bit the bullet last night and had a crack at the boiler tubes. All seems to have gone well and on your advice a cocooned the assembly in some refractory material I bought from my heating spares company. It's 5mm thick white stuff that bounces all the heat back and is only £7 for a huge 1200×600 piece they call it ceramic paper. I will take some pics later.

on another note I see GLR are closing down, which is a bit sad as I wanted to get the wood cladding and steam fittings kit from them…..

[Bill DawesParticipant @billdawes]

Martin I see you soldered from the top as described by Stan Bray in the article that came with the boiler kit. This is what I did and also with a 2941 burner. As my attempt did not work I have to have another go but from inside the firebox as the first effort partly soldered most of the tubes in so not easy to take apart and start again. Doing inside the firebox meant I needed a necktube burner, the 3525, from memory which is 10.3kw. From my limited, (but educational) experience Dunc, 3kw seems very small to me.

Sad to learn about GLR, I bought my 10.3kw burner and kaowool insulation from Cup alloys, excellent service, no connection with them of course.

Bet of luck.

Bill D.

[DismalduncParticipant @dismaldunc]

Well I reckon I'm gonna need a bigger burner, will hop onto the cup alloys site and get busy with my credit card

[Martin CooperParticipant @martincooper52042]

Dunc (and all)

I have put some more photos here. I can't claim it's the best made vertical boiler, but it raises steam and building it was hugely educational.

Good luck with your soldering!

Martin

[Mad muppetParticipant @madmuppet]

Marin

If my GLR vertical boiler turns out half as good looking I will be well happy.

Nice phots as well

George

[DismalduncParticipant @dismaldunc]

Thanks Martin the boiler looks great, love th idea of sticking the cladding to some card, I shall be using/stealing that idea

[nigel jones 5Participant @nigeljones5]

Hi, ive built quite a few vertical boilers in the past, and soldering the tubes from above is the first big mistake I made! This is simply asking for failure, and its a nightmare to try to correct once its cooled! If at all possible heat it from the other side. From the single photo im struggling to understand the design – hope you used higher temp solder for that joint cos its going to get very hot! Very confusing! Best of luck, and since its christmas day I will offer my services and equipment to help with any leaks should you need them (cant beat oxy for repairs).

[doubletopParticipant @doubletop]

I'm not claiming to be an expert on this subject apart from 'been there done that' with a couple of basic boilers and then one for the Northumbrian. What I haven't seen in the thread is any reference to the flux and if there is one thing I've learned is "get the flux right", ahead of 'how much heat".

Once I found Tenacity #5, or at least an equivalent to it, my silver soldering experiences improved by an order of magnitude. Even to the extent that before I couldn’t get the solder to flow, then I couldn’t stop it.

The other lesson was trying to manage the torch with one hand and feed the length solder rod with the other is doomed to failure. You never know whether you’ve got the heat and solder in the right place at the right time. Use “pallions”, short lengths of solder cut up and placed a round the job where you need the solder to flow. With plenty of the right flux you’ll soon know its working. One second lumps of half melted solder and then its gone, and flowed into the joint. Time to move the heat on to the next area.

………..Oh! and another thing while I’m rambling on. Keep the torch back from the job. Too close and you don’t have the work area in the hottest part of the flame. With the bigger burners that can be a foot or more.

Pete

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi Pete,

It is possible to feed solder. I also use paillons and start the soldering process, when the job (not solder) is hot enough teh solder will flow. on larger jobs the heat is then carried around the joint and th esolder will flow as it follows the heat. Stick solder is applied to the heated job in lag of the flame so that it is the job that melts the solder not the flame. By the way I use borax for all temperatures of solder from low temp up to enamelling grade and it works well.

My experience? first soldering work in 1970 as a trainee silversmith using step soldering and have used the techniques learned since on many jobs including successful boilers. I was taught by a real expert of many years experience himself, and have improved my skills empirically ever since,

Best regards and seasons greetings,

Terry

[doubletopParticipant @doubletop]

Terry

From a beginners point of view when trying this (or any other new process) there are so many variables and zero experience that it is hard to work out which particular variable is the cause of any problem. That's where I was two years ago when I made my first boiler and anything I tried didn't seem to resolve the issue. Suddenly the planets lined up and I now wonder why problems had existed. These days I just do it and it works, but in reality I do much the same thing each time and I now can spot the' sweet spot' when its time to feed solder

For beginners my advice was based on that recent experience and getting the basic stuff organized to remove any doubt. The rest can then be a matter of just do it and learn.

The other aspect is overcoming those negatives of either experience or advice. Some examples in my case :

• I read ‘flux can go off very quickly under heat and become ineffective” How long, how much heat? It was never answered so I was cautious. Tenacity 5 type fluxes don’t have this problem, so a variable removed.
• I melted some brass bushes on an early attempt. OK brass was the wrong material for bushes as it de-zincifies, found that out and moved to bronze. But I was still cautious when soldering bushes. It was over a year later when I was told bronze wouldn’t melt. Caution gone, wack on the heat.
• Stick feeding works, but when you are doing this for the first time and all this stuff is going through your head, waving a stick of solder at the job at the critical moment just adds to the stress and it invariably doesn’t go where you want it. So use pallions where you can. Another variable removed.

Get the basics out of the way and get the solder to flow well the first time and there is only one way forward, better and better results each time

Pete

[Adam Gregory 1Participant @adamgregory1]

Hi Dunc

Like Martin I used a Sievert 2941 following the instructions supllied with kit and all worked fine. I too used short peices and rings of silver solder around tubes and joints with flux applied, but also did something i think is called "hot roding" where i heated the solder stick and then plunged it into flux powder to coat stick. This i used to fill any areas that the solder did not want to fill or flow into, using the heat in the job to melt the stick not the torch. The process took about 10 to 12 minutes to get up to the right temp, I watched for the flux to run clear before attempting to add any more solder/flux.

I'm very pleased with my efforts and the boiler steams very quickly about seven or eight minutes from lighting coal to 60 psi and running engine.

Just got to finish the the model boat to give it a proper run.

I also want to thank all the people that put stuff up on the internet and forums for us newbebies to learn from.

Thanks Adam

[Bill DawesParticipant @billdawes]

Had another go at rescuing my first semi successful attempt, this time resoldering from inside the firebox, I took more care with insulation this time, all cosily wrapped in kaowool backed up with insulating blocks, the firebox also filled with insuation block offcuts.

Tried to keep flame from direct impingement on solder but found this to be not easy with a powerful flame in a relatively small area, flux seemed to be fizzing away far too soon. After what seemed to be an eternity I began to think it was not going to work again then suddenly the solder just flowed.

Thus encouraged, the next day I proceeded to solder in the firebox and ring. All seemed to go well but on inspection afterwards, another disaster, two of the tubes became unsoldered and dropped out.

Problem is they did not just fall out loose, the molten solder ran down the tubes and resoldered them to others, got to work out how to free them and resolder in.

Should I have insulated them from the heat more when I was soldering in the firebox and ring?

Reading through this sorry tale makes it all sound a bit amateurish, I guess I am learning the hard way.

Bill D.

[Bill DawesParticipant @billdawes]

PS. meant to ask, when I finally get to the point of fittings, do the threads need sealing, if so any special sealant/tape?

Bill D.

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

As LBSC's legendary "Boss White" appears not to be available any more, I use PTFE tape.

Neil

[Bill DawesParticipant @billdawes]

Thank you Neil.

Bill D.

[Martin CooperParticipant @martincooper52042]

Bill

Sorry to hear about your tubes moving. I should have mentioned this in my earlier post, but I'm pretty sure I did the tubeplate/firebox inner joint with higher temperature solder. I guess that's not an option for you now. If the tube joints reflowed whilst doing the firehole ring, it may be that you are actually putting too much heat in!

I do have experience of separating unwanted silver solder joints. Cutting the solder joint might damage the tubes, so I suggest localised heating again and having some tool nearby to move the parts further apart once the solder has flowed. Cleaning up the separated tubes afterwards may be tricky too (the copper will be as soft as butter after all that heating/annealing).

Good luck!

Martin

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