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  • #552479
    Vic
    Participant
      @vic
      Posted by Nigel Graham 2 on 16/06/2021 00:43:33:

      Sorry Bazyle but that idea is just not tenable for many thousands of people who like me could not re-charge a car at home, and in many cases may not be able to do so at their destinations either.

      What of all those who live in large blocks of flats, flats above town-centre shops; terraced houses built before motor-cars were common, or even invented? (As I do)

      In homes built without drives, on banks well above or below the road level?

      In trendy modern housing-estates built to resemble olde-worlde villages, with limited and scattered parking areas?The vague hope was that such pseudo-villages, like the Middle Farm estate (so-called ' Poundbury ' ) near Dorchester, in Dorset, would include or be very close to the places of employment etc. of residents, whom would appear assumed not to have lives outside of home and work. I think it was Government policy not so long ago to encourage such developments precisely to discourage car ownership.

      Such motorists have to take pot-luck on where they park; so will need ready access to convenient public charging-points just as most (though by no means all) presently have ready access to convenient filling-stations. And the time to wait in long, long queues.

      '

      I think vast numbers of people will be forced off the roads by cost and practicality

      Electric cars are very, very expensive new, and not very likely to drop sufficiently in price for any but those who can also afford homes with private drives and chargers. Low-price second-hand battery-electric cars are likely to be too expensive for many because the low price is due to its costly batteries having about expired. Sooner or later the revenue lost by reduced liquid-fuel sales will likely force the government to tax car electricity, and that possibility may be why if you have a high-power charger at home it has to have its own meter.

      Practicality? Well, as above. If you cannot charge the car at home you are forced to use public chargers, and what takes 5 minutes now will take (by equivalence) 15 minutes or more, per car – and for less range, so something needing very careful thought.

      How do you pay, too? I have seen no charging-points with card-readers, apparently intending paying the unstated cost by "smart"-phone… assuming all motorists have or will want such a 'phone, good 'phone signals, and you don't mind the added 'phone contract and middle-man fees. It assumes the only charger for miles around on a dark cold wet night will be a) working, b) not in a radio shadow, c) compatible with your car and phone – the government making no attempt to enforce both easy payment and single-standard electrics.

      For example, from my home in the South of England to my caving-club in Yorkshire is 300 miles / 8 hours by petrol car, with about 100 miles on ordinary roads. To my brother near Glasgow is some 400miles, 8/9 hrs, about 80 miles non-motorway. These would become expeditions, especially in Winter when I would need prepare for far longer times and take warm clothing, hot drinks, and even a precautionary sleeping-bag. At least if I did not carry much with me, both are accessible by train, via Bristol – the club is close to a station on the Leeds-Settle-Carlisle line.

      .

      I think many people's lives will become very limited or even very isolated; and all sorts of leisure and social activities, groups, venues etc. will be curtailed or ended, at great financial and cultural cost to the country with little real return for the overall good; climate-change notwithstanding.

      Edited By Nigel Graham 2 on 16/06/2021 00:45:55

      Do you ever park your car at a supermarket, DIY store, leisure centre etc etc that will in time all have dozens if not hundreds of charging points. Or does everything have to be done now, all at once. It took 25 Years for the first Petrol station to open in the UK.
      If you’re driving 300 miles there are several EV’s that can do that. One of the Tesla’s does 400. The Highway Code though says you should be taking a break of 15 minutes every two hours – plenty of time for an EV top up whilst you’re having a coffee.

      EV’s are expensive at the moment but the cost is coming down. Second hand models will trickle down as petrol models do. Only the super rich could afford petrol cars in the early days. ICE cars aren’t expected to be banned from our roads until 2050 so there’s plenty of time develop the EV concept.

      EV Myths

      I don’t yet have an EV but I’m hoping to get one when the price comes down a bit as they are much cheaper to run and absolutely lovely to drive I’m told.

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      #552495
      Ady1
      Participant
        @ady1

        I don’t yet have an EV but I’m hoping to get one when the price comes down a bit as they are much cheaper to run and absolutely lovely to drive I’m told

        I doubt they will stay cheap for long, motorists are a gigantic dripping roast for the exchequer

        5G will create variable road pricing, time,location, distance etc, electricty will keep going up in price

        If I was going to get anything electric I would look at its "range" and divide by two then decide if it met my needs

        A brave new world and we're the guinea pigs

        #552505
        Ady1
        Participant
          @ady1

          Yet another example of :

          "Its not about what they tell you. Its about what they DON'T tell you"

          There is no mention whatsoever in this article that Sweden is almost a cashless society and that makes them highly vulnerable

          **LINK**

          #552546
          Peter G. Shaw
          Participant
            @peterg-shaw75338

            I have been following this, and other, threads out of interest to try and understand what this brave new world may eventually look like. The one thing that seems to stand out is the almost universal theme that Mr & Mrs Average simply will not be able to afford personal transport, and that this means that we are headed back to a time when only the most affluent will be able to afford cars. In one instance this was mentioned as being 1960!

            Now, I am in my late 70's. I remember 1960, and before, very well indeed. For example, my parents bought the first (second hand) car in 1954. I bought my first car, a van actually, in 1965.

            So what was life like back then? Especially considering that we didn't know any better!

            Well, TV was limited to two, or maybe three channels. Does today's "hundreds" of channels really represent an improvement? I suggest not.

            An evening out was either the pub, about which I say no more, or a visit to the cinema, of which there were about 10 with 5 miles of where we lived. Transport was diesel bus, or electric (trolley) bus, both of which ran until 11.30pm.

            Work, something which a lot of people seem to forget about, was 40 to 48 hours per week, including Sat am, and by the time one added in travelling time to & from work, resulted in something like 11 hours away from home which in reality meant that opportunities for leisure were somewhat restricted. Do we want to go back to those hours? Probably not, but I do think that as a nation we are today frightened of hard work.

            Holidays. I well remember queuing in Halifax for a coach to take us to the likes of Butlin's at Filey. Or having to travel by train (steam at that) to Pwtheli in North Wales.

            Now, why have I brought this up. To show that there are a number of people who have lived their lives, and who managed quite well without personal transport. And, it has to be said, didn't know anything different. I was going to say "better", but are we really better off today rushing hither & thither? (I may have got my saying wrong there.) And also to show that this age of readily available personal transport is really quite short, 60 or so years at most. Perhaps we should consider making our own entertainment at home, rather than expecting it all to be laid on for us. Perhaps we should consider that all this rushing about seeking new experiences is actually bad for us. In this respect, I have recently come back from a place what we have vistited many times, a place which has an almost magical calming and soothing effect on me. Which suggests that I for one, need to escape from our increasingly frenetic lives. Perhaps, restrictions on our personal freedom to travel might not be a bad thing after all.

            Lunch calls, so I'll leave it there.

            Regards,

            Peter G. Shaw

            #552578
            J Hancock
            Participant
              @jhancock95746

              So , compared to what's coming , Billingham is like the Austrian Tyrol.

              #552641
              Nigel Graham 2
              Participant
                @nigelgraham2

                Vic –

                I wish I could share your optimism but the whole concept just does not stack up as the green types and politicians imagine.

                However many charging points they install there will always be queues at busy times; and what happens if the connector is incompatible with your car, or the chargers are out of action and you may be a long way from the nearest alternative assuming you know where it is? A parallel argument applies to availability of petrol or diesel of course, but their ranges are more reliably longer.

                The ranges seem suspect, as if calculated or test-track conditions, not real driving in a hilly country in busy traffic in bad Winter weather.

                The cost of the electricity in future is a huge unknown; even more so if /when subject to tax and/or the payments are via enforced "smart"-phones with their contracts and hidden middle-men fees. And variable signal coverage.

                The new costs are not likely to fall to "affordable" levels; and if second-hand ones are cheap it's because their very costly batteries are dying.

                '

                Peter –

                Well, I reckon motoring will go back to the 1910s when it was the preserve of those who could afford the proliferating battery-powered cars of the time.

                If you can't join that exclusive car-owning club, how are you going to take your latest creation to the major model-enegineering show or rally? Assuming they exist of course thanks to it being no bad thing that most of us have to stay local apart from the annual trip Pwllheli or Fylde, so the attendances and exhibit lists at major events are uneconomically too small.

                Indeed I foresee a time when huge swathes of the country's culture and leisure will die off , and what's left will be severely limited in choice and heavily constrained, as people become unable to go anywhere in large numbers, or to take anything anywhere, any significant distance from home. Replacing frenetic dashing to social and cultural events, clubs etc, with the more stressful isolation, sense of loss and monotony. Nothing man-made in this world comes for nowt, and electric cars come with a lot of owt.

                #552646
                pgk pgk
                Participant
                  @pgkpgk17461

                  Folk are determined and greedy enough that they will find a way of attending mass events even if private car ownership did become problematic. History shows us that in pastoral times they used to walk turkeys and geese from Norfolk to London – 100 miles in leather turkey boots. My old school boatman used to tell me stories of his pre-war 3-day trip to get the boats to Henley regatta using a horse and cart. As a young teen, I happily rode 60 mile round trips on a bicycle. It’s just that we are in that cultural period of wanting everything NOW.

                  There was a time when car ownership was the province of the wealthy, Before that horse ownership was the province of the wealthy and presumably at some point shoes were a luxury. I feel cheated by not owning my personal jet that rich people have.

                  pgk

                  #552649
                  Ady1
                  Participant
                    @ady1

                    The highlands could be a problem for a while

                    I only spent serious time up there in the 80s and 90s in summertime but power cuts were common, 2 a week was just-another-day up there

                    It's why they have gas tanks in their gardens, its more reliable for getting through the long winters

                    #552655
                    J Hancock
                    Participant
                      @jhancock95746

                      Is there any other country in the world going into this headlong conversion to EV's , as us ?

                      #552662
                      Michael Gilligan
                      Participant
                        @michaelgilligan61133
                        Posted by J Hancock on 05/07/2021 08:52:57:

                        Is there any other country in the world going into this headlong conversion to EV's , as us ?

                        .

                        Germany for one !

                        MichaelG.

                        #552665
                        Circlip
                        Participant
                          @circlip

                          Wonder if that ls cos they told lies about their car emissions????

                          Regards Ian.

                          #552669
                          pgk pgk
                          Participant
                            @pgkpgk17461
                            Posted by J Hancock on 05/07/2021 08:52:57:

                            Is there any other country in the world going into this headlong conversion to EV's , as us ?

                            Link
                            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_fossil_fuel_vehicles#Countries

                            Countries with proposed bans or implementing 100% sales of zero-emissions vehicles include China, Japan, the UK, South Korea, Iceland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Slovenia, Germany, France, the Netherlands, Spain, Portugal, Canada, the 12 U.S. states that adhered to California's Zero-Emission Vehicle (ZEV) Program, Sri Lanka, Cabo Verde, and Costa Rica.[1]

                            pgk

                            #552670
                            Michael Gilligan
                            Participant
                              @michaelgilligan61133

                              From today’s News:

                              ff8987ef-59ce-4773-aa00-fd417783f383.jpeg

                              #552671
                              Bob Worsley
                              Participant
                                @bobworsley31976

                                Something that might be of interest, about the battery management chips used in lithium batteries. They use security pass codes to stop you replacing dead cells.

                                So it would appear that if you want to repair these battery packs, then only the manufacturer or agent can do it. Otherwise it looks like the battery won't talk to the car, or computer, and both are useless.

                                All because of safety?

                                Never really worked out why lead acid batteries aren't used. Yes, heavier, but most cars only have one person in them so the additional weight isn't really important. They are an established technology, can be easily recycled, and can get one cell to match the ampere hours demand of the car, not hundreds of cells in series and parallel.

                                #552673
                                pgk pgk
                                Participant
                                  @pgkpgk17461

                                  A string of articles re Giga Berlin…including that they are already testing the paint shop..
                                  Link
                                  https://insideevs.com/tag/tesla-gigafactory-4/

                                  He's ploughed ahead without awaiting approvals but it's hard to see them being refused with the job creation and economic value, albeit there may be political delays to show appeasement to those against.
                                  The only reason I see for ultimate refusal would be if the German Auto Manufacturers got a political edge. Tesla sales are going so well the German’s want a slice of a manufacturer that can sell all he can make.

                                  pgk

                                  #552674
                                  Speedy Builder5
                                  Participant
                                    @speedybuilder5

                                    Average time for a re-fuel for internal combustion engines 10 mins

                                    Average time for a re-fuel electric 90 mins

                                    So fuel stations will have to be 10 times bigger ? Imagine being stuck on the motorway service station, they will have to cater for 10 times the number of people. Are they planning ahead now ???

                                    #552676
                                    pgk pgk
                                    Participant
                                      @pgkpgk17461
                                      Posted by Speedy Builder5 on 05/07/2021 10:29:29:

                                      Average time for a re-fuel for internal combustion engines 10 mins

                                      Average time for a re-fuel electric 90 mins

                                      Misinformation based on older generation BEV's . Fastest chargers deliver upto 350KW though granted few cars can accept that (yet).
                                      Battery reality is that fastest charge is between 10-80% which on model3 is 55KWH which it can suck in in about 30mins.Since it's cheaper to charge at home most folk top-up just what they need – 20mins..
                                      The new Oxford superhub will have 38 high-speed chargers
                                      There are already several 16 charger Tesla sites UK (2 in Birmingham)

                                      pgk

                                      #552685
                                      Ady1
                                      Participant
                                        @ady1

                                        Those charging plugs will have nice thick copper wires attached to them

                                        just saying

                                        no-one would be daft enough to… would they?

                                        #552687
                                        J Hancock
                                        Participant
                                          @jhancock95746

                                          Do you imagine the average Motorway service station is equipped to charge 'how many ' EV's at the rate of 350Kwh/car ?

                                          Or your average house ?

                                          #552689
                                          V8Eng
                                          Participant
                                            @v8eng

                                            I recently did some checking for EV mileage on a few cars using the range calculators on manufacturer’s websites.
                                            Altering speeds temperature etc could make some surprising changes to potential distance capability.

                                            #552696
                                            Vic
                                            Participant
                                              @vic

                                              I’m actually just as interested in the decline in Diesel cars as we really need to get them off our streets as soon as possible. Luckily the message is getting across. Hopefully the complete ban on using Diesel cars can be brought forward by ten or fifteen years.

                                              b085707a-bdf5-4844-9eb0-176c73f768fd.jpeg

                                              #552698
                                              Michael Gilligan
                                              Participant
                                                @michaelgilligan61133
                                                Posted by Bob Worsley on 05/07/2021 10:11:23:

                                                […]

                                                Never really worked out why lead acid batteries aren't used.

                                                .

                                                Here’s a recent story to balance that thought : **LINK**

                                                https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/2/22559051/porsche-taycan-ev-recall-12-volt-audi-etron-gt

                                                MichaelG.

                                                #552699
                                                Michael Gilligan
                                                Participant
                                                  @michaelgilligan61133
                                                  Posted by Vic on 05/07/2021 12:44:04:

                                                  […]

                                                  … Diesel cars as we really need to get them off our streets as soon as possible. …

                                                  .
                                                  I couldn’t agree more, Vic yes

                                                  … and why are there so many ? : Because it was decreed that they were good, and the market was manipulated to encourage their use.

                                                  It’s happening again with EV … but [hopefully] this time there is better logic underlying the manipulation.

                                                  MichaelG.

                                                  #552713
                                                  J Hancock
                                                  Participant
                                                    @jhancock95746

                                                    It is too late to 'go nuclear' , like France , to produce electricity , which means it will be gas that does all the ' heavy lifting.' to make up for the lack of renewables.

                                                    And making electricity from gas, is the next thing to criminal, in terms of thermodynamic conversion, heat to energy.

                                                    #553530
                                                    Vic
                                                    Participant
                                                      @vic

                                                      There seems to be lots of research into energy storage so I wonder if the ultimate goal is to go almost fully renewable at some point? I did read an article some time ago that suggested we could as a species go virtually fully solar if suitably interconnected. They even suggested the acreage of panels required and it wasn’t as large as you might expect.

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