Fitzroy storm glass

[Anthony KnightsParticipant @anthonyknights16741]

Although this isn't strictly model engineering, I am hoping some of the clever people on here can provide an answer. For a novelty, I intend building a "Fitztroy" storm glass.**LINK**

Among other things I require 40ml of ethanol. The smallest quantity I can find on Ebay is 500ml. I am concerned that if I order this, it it will either be confiscated by Customs as it enters the country or I will be stuck with a big bill for Excise Duty, VAT etc.

I have looked at Surgical Spirit, which is similar to methylated spirits without the colouring. It can also contain other additives. Does anyone think this stuff would work?

[Anthony KnightsParticipant @anthonyknights16741]

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember19781]

[This posting has been removed]

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Interesting project, Anthony … thanks for sharing the link

Two thoughts:

1. Would isopropyl alcohol work as a substitute for ethanol ?
2. A good Vodka is not far off pure [I have used it for lens cleaning]

I recently purchased [1] from a UK supplier, cheaply and efficiently

[2] should always be kept in your stock

MichaelG.

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

I see that the recipe calls for 33 ml water and 40 ml ethanol. You could substitute vodka or another white spirit for the mixture, but not for just the ethanol part. Neutral spirit is used in making gin and might be available in small quantities from one of the new breed of gin makers, or here. I believe it can be bought in French supermarkets, people use it to make their own liqueurs.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Pure ethanol is either heavily taxed or has to be bought under licence; this is because pure alcohol is top-dog for tax-dodging recreational purposes. Cheap ethanol as sold as a solvent, as fuel, or for medical purposes contains additives that might well interfere with Camphor's ability to form crystals, especially in a sensitive application like a Storm Glass. I doubt anyone knows for sure and suggest the easiest way to find out is to try it.

I like Michael and John's suggestion of using a good Vodka! Otherwise, Meths contains fewer additives than Surgical Spirit and the Blue colour can be removed with a drop of thin toilet bleach.

Dave

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Here in France we can buy "Alcohol à Bruler" (burning alcohol) which is 90% ethanol and has no colouring. That should work and is available at most supermarkets. So if you know someone doing a wine buying day trip across the channel you could ask them to get some. It costs about €1/litre.

You might find the potassium nitrate a problem as it can be used in explosives.

Russell

Edited By Russell Eberhardt on 04/09/2019 15:15:54

[Anthony KnightsParticipant @anthonyknights16741]

Thank you for the replies.

I have checked the local stores and the strongest vodka I can find is 40% ABV. The ratio in the storm glass recipe is 40ml ethanol, 33ml water, which I work out to needing a vodka with an alcohol content of almost 55%. I need to research "Polish Spirit" which has a high alcohol content, allegedly to stop it freezing in their winters.

I had to go to the local chemists today to collect some medication, so bought a bottle of Surgical Spirit while I was there. I will try that and if it doesn't work I'll try the bleached meths.

Potassium nitrate is available on the net as a meat preservative and is also probably in the local garden centre.

I suppose mixing ammonium nitrate and potassium chloride would give the same mix of ions.

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Ebay has strict rules about selling alcohol (from the excise viewpoint) – as I found out when i lisited a collectable whiskey i inherited. I can't see a problem buying ethanol from there as presumably same rules donlt apply.. and the 5-10% impurity is probably methanol or something equally undrinkable.

For those that like an anecdote – intravenous vodka s the theoretical treatment for dogs drinking ethylene glycol. Despite looking I never had a patient with that to justify buying vodka as a business expense..

pgk

[Anthony KnightsParticipant @anthonyknights16741]

Googled Polish Spirit and found 2 sites selling it with an ABV of 95%. At £30+ a bottle I'll try the other options first.

[MeunierParticipant @meunier]

pgk, the risk of animals (and small children) drinking/licking ethylene glycol has most probably been significantly reduced as a result of ethylene glycol being replaced by propylene glycol in vehicle anti-freezes.
DaveD

[JourneymanParticipant @journeyman]

Don't know where you are situated but Amazon sell bio-ethanol and isopropyl alcohol. You may also find the bio-ethanol in garden centres.

John

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

Hi Anthony,

Fitzroys stormglass was in "Eagle" Annual when I was young. Got it made up at Boots!

They did ask if it was OK to substitute Surgical Spirit, which they did.

I can confirm that it worked very well and I enjoyed using it and comparing with the weather. Seemed to be accurate.

John

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Journeyman on 04/09/2019 17:04:43:

Don't know where you are situated but Amazon sell bio-ethanol and isopropyl alcohol. You may also find the bio-ethanol in garden centres.

John

Bioethanol, Alcohol à Bruler, Surgical Spirit and Meths are all similar, that is mostly ethanol with a good dollop of nastiness to stop people enjoying a bottle of it in front of the telly.

The alcohol content is fine. The awkward question is will the nasty additives in these concoctions upset the crystallisation of Camphor inside Antony's Storm Glass? Don't know! I think he'll have to experiment to find out!

A serviceable mix might be made from good Vodka as the pure-ish alcohol/water base, with added meths/bioethanol or French burning alcohol to make the strength up to 55%. Vodka would dilute the additives making them less likely to interfere.

The recipe is:

• 2.5 g potassium nitrate
• 2.5 g ammonium chloride
• 33 mL distilled water
• 40 mL ethanol
• 10 g natural camphor

Any chemists out there – I don't believe Potassium Nitrate and Ammonium Chloride react?

If so, I think the mixture either works by using the Nitrate and Chloride to balance the solubility of the Water/Ethanol solute so that the Camphor is at the tipping point between it's dissolved and solid form OR it's the Camphor that balances the Nitrate and Chloride at their crystallisation point.

As the tipping point is effected by temperature and pressure, it makes a crude weather forecasting device. The density of the liquid must be be important; whatever the crystals are made of they have to float in the tube rather than fall to the bottom like a Snow Globe.

Dave

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by Meunier on 04/09/2019 16:59:25:

pgk, the risk of animals (and small children) drinking/licking ethylene glycol has most probably been significantly reduced as a result of ethylene glycol being replaced by propylene glycol in vehicle anti-freezes.
DaveD

If I recall there was also a rash of cases reported (some years ago) of foxes biting through brake hoses for the sweet taste…

pgk

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Anthony Knights on 04/09/2019 16:23:00:

Thank you for the replies.

I have checked the local stores and the strongest vodka I can find is 40% ABV. The ratio in the storm glass recipe is 40ml ethanol, 33ml water, which I work out to needing a vodka with an alcohol content of almost 55%. …

.

May I presume that you have a freezer?

… you might investigate 'freeze distillation' [purely Academic research of course]

MichaelG.

.

Edit: I've just checked … and it's probably nor worth bothering

https://www.thoughtco.com/why-doesnt-vodka-freeze-3975987

.

P.S. my litre of Isopropyl Alcohol only cost £5.55 delivered.

… But I don't think we yet know if that would work.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 04/09/2019 17:52:50

[herbert punterParticipant @herbertpunter99795]

Link. Ten Quid from here

[Frances IoMParticipant @francesiom58905]

the Norwegians used to sell ‘water distillation’ kits that just happened to allow fermented plum juice (+ possibly other juices) to produce a potable drink (remarkable what one can drink when legit alcohol is extremely expensive) – I bought at auction 5 litre of surgical spirit as used in beauty salons – I use it as a cheap way of cleaning certain oily residues but it contains some oil of its own + a perfume.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by John Haine on 04/09/2019 11:52:15:

I see that the recipe calls for 33 ml water and 40 ml ethanol.

Smirnoff blue label. 45% ethanol and you get 677ccleft to drink

"I thought Fitzroy's Storm Glass was a weather forecaster until I discovered Smirnoff…"

Neil

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

Industrial methylated spirits is the one (in the UK) with 95%ethanol and 5%methanol. Surgical spirits has castor oil added as well, which made it useless even for cleaning injection sites.

54 years a diabetic…

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

You may find a good off licence/ wine merchant sells miniatures and 1/4 bottles of various spirits in the vodka or Polish spirit.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

I've just submitted a request for the full-text of this: **LINK**

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/249883017_The_chemical_weather_glass_Composition_and_operation

'though, as it's dated 2008, I may or may not receive it.

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Here is Fitzroy's TheWeather Book … See book page 439 et seq.

**LINK**

https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_qNK7AAAAIAAJ/page/n454

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Anthony Knights on 04/09/2019 16:23:00:

Thank you for the replies.

I have checked the local stores and the strongest vodka I can find is 40% ABV. The ratio in the storm glass recipe is 40ml ethanol, 33ml water, which I work out to needing a vodka with an alcohol content of almost 55%.

[ … ]

.

Saw this on the News feed, Anthony, and thought of you: **LINK**

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-49583338

MichaelG.

[Anthony KnightsParticipant @anthonyknights16741]

This is turning into a major research project. Checked up on bio ethanol. Seems to be 97% ethanol with the remainder presumably additives to prevent people drinking it. Virtually identical to meths (without the dye?)

Isopropyl alcohol has virtually the same density as ethanol, but nearly twice the viscosity. It's molar mass (molecular weight?) is bigger (ethanol 46.069, isopropyl alcohol 60.069). How these differences would alter the precipitation or crystalisation process in the mixture,I don't know. It's nearly 60 years since I did my Chemistry A levels.

Now is the time for some empirical design work AKA suck it and see.

Edited By Anthony Knights on 05/09/2019 06:55:20

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