Electric vehicles

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Bo'sun on 19/11/2020 08:34:10:

It realy p""""s me off seeing these tree hugging eco warriors …

What worries me is the number of folk who still don't get it. This ain't tree-hugging, humanity are facing major changes in the way we live.

Energy has been dirt cheap for 300 years. Literally dirt-cheap because it comes out of the ground. Party on! Aircraft, cars, fertilizers, central-heating, air-con, cheap food, steel, plastics, mass-production, world trade, pensions, health systems, comfortable safe lives, personal freedoms, wealth. The list is endless. It's great, and we're all energy junkies.

But the party is very obviously coming to an end. And it's a triple whammy:

• We've passed 'peak oil', which is the point at which oil cannot be pumped out fast enough to meet demand. Many oil fields are either exhausted or nearly drained. Unlike the brief scare in the 1970s, the world has now been thoroughly explored. There are no new large sources of oil on the planet. More coal about but same basic problem, God isn't making any more.
• Demand for energy is rising year on year as the world develops. China is a good example; when I was a boy, Pekin (Beijing) was full of pedestrians and bicycles. Times change. The People's Republic has been the largest market in the world for new cars since 2009, and in June 2020, they reported 360,000,000 vehicles on the road. Similar enthusiasm for car owning around the world, and everyone wants oil. The price of petrol and diesel will rise sharply as soon as demand exceeds supply.  Expect big increases within 5 to 10 years.
• Burning huge quantities of fossil fuels over the last 300 years has caused global warning and – it now appears certain – has triggered irreversible Climate Change. Failure to act in time is going to force unwelcome change on billions of people, including here. One unpleasant scenario for the UK is losing the Gulf Stream because the polar ice-gap has melted. This warm sea current gives Northern Europe an abnormally moderate climate for our latitude. As London is 10° north of Toronto, and Edinburgh is further north than Moscow, losing the Gulf Stream will make England much colder than we're used to. Not 'put on a coat' colder – it would effect everything.

I believe the looming economic problem is pushing government policy. Unlike Climate Change, where the science is difficult, the effects of demand and shortage on prices are well understood by politicians and businessmen. The problem has to be addressed, and the main issue is it's been left too late.

Schopenhauer observed: 'All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.' Faced with an unpleasant reality too many get stuck in stages One and Two. 'This cannot be happening!'

We shouldn't be surprised by change. History is full of it – one effing thing after another. We think motor cars are so ordinary they must be a human right. Nope. Mass car ownership in the UK is only about 60 years old. I walked 4 miles a day to school and then went to work on a bus. Though fading, working horses were still about in the 1950s. Steam locomotion only started 170 years ago. None of today's world is permanent; we have to move on.

So think kindly of 'tree-huggers' – they're trying to fix a horrific problem. Unlike detractors, too many of whom are bottom up with their heads in the sand! Ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee.

Dave

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 19/11/2020 10:49:52

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by Anthony Knights on 19/11/2020 10:19:20:

I wonder how many terrorist organisations are investigating this right now and how the Security services are responding?

The previously made post regarding distribution of power is probably correct. I imagine that if even half the houses on my street attempted to charge electric cars at the same time, the safety devices in the local sub-station would operate to stop the distribution cables melting.

At peak times I'd guess most houses pull an extra 3-4KW with kettles, TV's, stoves cooking. Possibly more than that level compared to their off peak usage. Home car charging is typically 7KW and off-peak so if half the folk in your street charged off-peak then the cables are carrying their typical load.

Rather than continue monopolising here I'll stay quiet unless specifically asked for a comment.

pgk

[Chuck TaperParticipant @chucktaper]

Its only change. Change is neither good or bad its just change. Technology always changes, always brings disruption – at least ever sense we decided that technology was a thing.
The poor old "corrupt & incompetent politicians" are hardly responsible for our (the mob?) preference to luxuriate in heretic/believer polemic instead of exploring opportunities & possibilities.
Current circumstances dictate that we need to change to a different set of circumstances. Engineers will, as alway, facilitate that with elegant/efficient solutions (hopefully).

…and the other thoughts along the same line

Frank C.

[Ian HewsonParticipant @ianhewson99641]

It’s not the technology that’s the real problem, but the number of people on this planet that use it.

[derek hall 1Participant @derekhall1]

I expect the price of second hand diesels and petrol cars will plummet towards 2030, but the fuel to keep them on the road will increase massively – by the government of the day to get them off the road.

So now the money raised in fuel tax will have gone, there will have to be a new tax (higher of course!) to replace it.

People don't like change and have to be forced into it sometimes. Life is different in 2020 compared with last year, however this electric vehicle situation will arrive eventually….

Good questions and answers from everyone on here. There have been similar articles in the magazine of the Institute of Engineering Technology and the big question is of course are we exchanging one form of pollution for another?

I don't know much about electric vehicles but rare earth magnets and other materials seem to be found in those Countries that could hold the world to ransom like the Middle East have done to inflate prices. What happens to the old batteries – I mean current mobile phone batteries are hopeless

I think "driverless" cars is the ultimate goal whatever the fuel. You don't need a car, you order one to arrive at a specific time and date and take you to "x" and then "y", like a taxi but better. No need to have a tin box on wheels spending the majority of its time not going anywhere….

Good discussion all round but lets not get personal eh guys?, we all have different opinions on stuff and this is no different…

Regards to all

Derek

[Rod RenshawParticipant @rodrenshaw28584]

 

Lots of interesting views, and some less than temperate comments, in this thread.

I wonder if the progress in driverless vehicles will change the way we think about personal transport in a few years time? If the car drives itself and needs no input from the owner will we really want to own our own car? I know many drivers take pride in their vehicle and their driving but will that be the same if the vehicle is autonomous? I accept that driverless vehicles are not perfect yet but progress is being made. Steets will be clearer of parked cars too, most cars spend most of their lives just sat around getting in the way

It could be more like an automated taxi service. "Call" one when you need to go out and it turns up at your door, "tell" it where you want to go and get out at the other end. Get out right in the City centre, not far away where you can park. No need to look for somewhere to park or to pay for doing so. No need to have a parking place at home or at work. Call another "taxi" for the trip home, or there could be automated taxi ranks in busy places. Run or walk when the weather is fine, get a taxi when it rains?

Most of the cost of present day taxi journeys are drivers' wages. Someone else can worry about upfront costs, fuel, battery, repairs and maintenance etc. Non- drivers, disabled people and anyone who no longer wants to drive due to age etc. can all use the same service.

Rod

Edited By Rod Renshaw on 19/11/2020 11:58:55

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

Wonder how many cell block shapes it will generate? Given the variations of shapes and sizes the existing car manufacturers use to ensure you replace with a "Branded" replacement and it won't be a Saturday afternoon two spanner changeover.

Regards Ian.

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Kiwi Bloke asked the question about the Emergency Services.

Sorry sir I cannot get you out of your wrecked car until someone has made that 800V battery safe.

200 -> 800V DC has a strong bite

[IanTParticipant @iant]

An interesting read with clearly very diverse opinions. Past experience of EVs seems a good deal less positive than all the marketing hype for them – but maybe newer versions are much improved.

I will admit to some bias here – having driven a 3 litre (petrol) V6 as my day-to-day car for thirteen years (and loved every trip). I purchased that car from new and was deeply sad to part with her. On a very long trip I was delighted to average 35mpg. But driving to Milan over the Alps is something that I can still recall with great joy.

My replacement car has a much smaller 1.4 litre turbo-charged engine, which even on short trips (just Click & Collect these days) is averaging 35mpg – and it will easily do 50mpg on longer trips cruising at 70mph. The range is well over 450 miles per fill-up. It's six years old now but in good condition and I've no plans to change her in the immediate future.

Sometime in the next nine years (all being well) I will probably purchase a new car. I have no idea what it will be, petrol, hybrid or electric. I will look at that time to see what is available and what seems to best fit my needs. Sadly (for me at least) I think it will be my last car.

So I'm not going to waste any time worrying about this at the moment – I think there are more serious threats to peoples lives at the moment. Personally, I think much of what I've seen pronounced by Government in terms of overall energy policy and the green agenda is mostly wishful thinking and doesn't seem to be backed up by any serious policy and planning work.

Regards,

IanT

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

pgk talks about a typical home car charging of 7kW which equates to around 30A (assuming 235V). I have off-peak storage heating which from memory can take about 80A if all the heaters are switched on. I also have a 100A main fuse, which rather begs the question of what would happen in my case? A glowing 100A fuse? Molten plastic under the fuse? Glowing feeder cables? It's somewhat worrying. Yes, I know the above is unlikely to happen, but serves to show how close I would be in this event.

I have other worries as well. I tow a caravan, and have done for 40 years. It's not a large caravan, and we manage quite well with a 7 year old 1.8ltr petrol estate car. We don't do much: indeed the furthest we go is about 215 miles, yet we still have to fill up with petrol to get there. What price battery power? Unfortunately I can see a future where travel such as we do simply won't happen, and the owner of the site we have used quite frequently going out of business after having spent many £thousands producing a small, but high quality site.

As it happens, it's very unlikely I'll still be around in 2030 (I like to think I'll be here, but realistically I doubt it), so it won't matter that much to me. But what about my children, my daughter especially? Following an accident where she fell off a horse and broke her back, she is now dependant on a wheelchair and a modified car. Ok she will be able to transfer to an electric vehicle, but then she will need charging facilities. Then there is my elder grandson who works as an agricultural contractor: how will he go on with an electric combine harvester – if such a thing can indeed be produced. Even what might be called bog-standard tractors are rather large vehicles. My second grandson is setting himself up as a self-employed engineering and fabricating contractor – recently he has been into Scotland and into West Yorkshire. Travelling is an essential part of his job.

What has been said is perfectly correct – our generation has probably had the best of it, but it doesn't make it anymore palatable. I remember when the annual holiday involved queuing for a coach to take us to the coast. Or travelling by train (steam at that) and then being stuck at our destination until hometime, although to be fair I don't remember any bad weather, perhaps I was too young. But do we really want to go back to those days? Perhaps we'll be forced into it.

All in all, I don't like what is happening. I resent the implications yet understand that with the current state of things, not necessarily just technology, there may well have to be changes. It does make me wonder if we might not have been better off restricting private/personal travel before it became popular.

Peter G. Shaw

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Blimey, SOD, it's a long time since I've had to look up Schopenb100dyhauer, philosopher of pessimism, doomed to eternal obscurity.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

PGK, does the Telsa have regenerative braking? I was looking at the Peugeot 308SUV as there was one parked opposite yesterday and that has two options for the level of braking that the driver can select, no doubt ideal for going down Welsh hillsides and another way the distance between charges can be extended.

I expect as more motorsport goes electric the petrol heads and boy racers will be more willing to go electric, DTM is going electric in 2022 and there are things like the Extreme E off roaders, TT has had an electric bike class for a few years and they don't hang about.

[Andy_GParticipant @andy_g]

Re questions about emergency response:

**LINK**

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Politicians make promises for others to keep. (Example: U k's "World Beating" Test and Trace system ) If you are really lucky, they actually know what they are talking about.

Fact

Burning fossil fuels pollutes the environment. But so does extracting the materials to make anything.

Fact

We are past peak oil

Fact

No one tells us the complete environmental life cycle cost (ground to ground ) of anything,

(IF they know it )

Fact

A lot of travel is not necessary (Holiday flights, pleasure motoring, Importing food that we could grow at home and so on,)

We choose to run small less polluting vehicles (Euro 6 compliant ) We don't tow a trailer or caravan (Our vehicle manufacturer specifically forbids fitting a tow bar ) A brim full petrol tank will take 4 of us well over 400 miles, and takes only a few minutes to fill.

One day battery, electric motor, control and vehicle technology will match or exceed that.

Currently the costs of electric vehicles are too great for us.

Vested Interest? YES

Diesel engines, in various forms, throughout my working life, have provided.the means by which we are now able to live comfortably. We are not rich, but have no pressing needs.

Will the ban on ICE cars cause us problems? Probably not, unless anticipating a telegram from Buckingham Palace.

But it will seriously affect our Daughter, Son in Law, and their children. So our leaders need to get their act together, correctly, and soon, for their sakes.

Unusually, they will have to act totally out of character, to take an overall view, and think logically

Howard

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

Sorry Jason but the ‘e’ tat is/was a farce as it was only a two lap race and you needed two bikes to do that. The last race only had about 4 entrants which led to it being scrapped for the foreseeable future. It’s fairly obvious to me that bike manufacturers are not embracing electric except for commuters especially as the tt races were usually won by private innovators.

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by JasonB on 19/11/2020 12:20:40:

PGK, does the Telsa have regenerative braking?….

Indeed it does and can be adjusted between 'light' and 'normal'. Coming down the hill between Bala and Llanfyllin I 'recover' 3-4 miles range. It also leads to minimal use of brakes..paradoxically it's advised to use them heavily every few weeks to keep the discs clean and service them throughly every year in damp british climates but the pads will last for ages as will the brake fluid. One pedal driving.

KWIL My local Fireman pal tells me they carry a book of how to deal with various cars when needng to cut/pull folk from wrecks. The Tesla has an emergency 'frunk' opening pull and in there is another emergency cut-off for the 400V. The latest EV's go up to 800V .

Peter G. Shaw Some Teslas are tow capable (well they all are but some are actually EU approved for it). One Tesla forum member frequently tows his glider around the UK. Yes there's a hit on range as there would be with petrol and a limit on nose weight.

edit – For petrol heads… my 'slow' Tesla is 0-60 in 4 secs (not that I do that after the intitial playtime of ownership). The fastest Tesla is 0-60 in 2.3secs and the Roadster is claimed will be 0-60 in 1.9secs or better and will even be capable of being fitted with booster rockets for off-road use to bypass rubber on road limits. The limitation will be one's willingness to detach your retinas and stay concious. So 10 second cars as production cars under £150K should satisfy the most demanding nutters…

pgk

Edited By pgk pgk on 19/11/2020 13:44:16

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Yes range was a bit limited, think it was actually down to one lap in 2019 but speed was not bad considering they weigh about 80kg more than a petrol bike Similar with things like formula E where they run two races at a meeting rather than one longer race which can make for more entertainment.

[HOWARDTParticipant @howardt]

I think that the car manufacturers need to come up with a cheap solution to replace the batteries. How many cars have we on the roads that are around ten years old in the UK. If useable battery life is currently around seven years, we need a cheap replacement technology to extend vehicle life. Who wants to buy a five or six year old car that they then have to pay more for a new battery than the price of the car. Also odd cells can go bad within the pack, does the manufacturer replace the whole pack or just the defective cell to prolong the life. Perhaps we should go down the route of one design of basic drive train and only make the body work different, thus all drivetrain parts can be cheaper as there is only one type in manufacture then make it that all updates have to be able to be retrofitted to the original design.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Posted by not done it yet on 19/11/2020 11:40:10:

NF,

silly thread?

READ THOSE TWO WORDS AGAIN, PLEASE.

It does actually say thread, not post. Obviously too subtle for you to grasp?

I was actually referring back to the ostentatious joker that started this thread – a confirmed petrol-head with a distinct anti-BEV agenda.

Hi NDIY, sorry I don't understand your comment. Where in my post that you are referring to, in this thread, did I mention post. You said "this silly thread" which, I understood you were referring to this thread, which was started by the OP, to whom I believed you were referring to in the paragraph that I quoted in my post that you have commented about.

Please correct me if I've miss understood what you were actually saying. If I have got it wrong, then I apologise.

Regards Nick.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

One thing that concerns me about binging this forward is that it will force some OEMs to make what I call "Hardly Hybrid" cars like the new Fiat 500 and Panda. Thes basically replace the starter and alternator with a small belt driven starter generator and 11Ah (123Wh) battery. This is little better than stop start. Longer development time would allow better solutions. The advertising is also confusing What's the differentce between a mild hybrid and a "self-charging Hybrid" ? All hybrids are self charging so I guess they mean "not a plug-in"

I currently drive a large plug-in hybrid bought used. My prevous car was a large Fiat with 2l 150hp turbo diesel. Plug-in does better MPG all round without plugging in. When going into the office (pre Covid) I could normally get a charging spot and that meant all electric to and from work on one (free) charge.

Robert G8RPI

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

Steve said couldnt believe amount of a/c fuel.

Try reading paperback title Vulcan, about bombing Stanley a /p in Faulklands.They used relays of umpteen Victor tankers to mid air refuel each other and the bomb carrying Vulcan, the empty Victors returning to Ascension. How many tons of fuel for that long range op? Think it was 8000miles each way from RAF Waddington.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Well, Stevie really has thrown a very large rock into the otherwise still pond.

It has brought out a lot of facts, but not everyone wants to be confused by them!

Howard

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

"Vulcan 607" Lots of copies avail. from on line bookshops. Good read

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

Sub surface garden heat pumps NOT the answer; they 'suck' out so much heat as to cause a perma frost. They then suffer reduced efficiency and maybe fail completely.

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

pgk,

Yes I am aware that, eg, the Toyota RAV4 hybrid will supposedly tow my caravan. I must admit that I'm not too sure about the Tesla models mainly on the grounds of cost.

At the moment, assuming my health holds out, and how well the present car is running, I might be looking to change it in about 3 years time. Given that it is a Toyota with, as I understand it, a more or less bomb proof older design of engine, it may well be longer. One thing is more or less certain and that is that I don't really want a petrol engined car with a turbo-charger, more efficient they may well be, but after having had a diesel with a turbo on it blow up, no thank you. Of course, I may have no option when it comes to change time.

Peter G. Shaw

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