eBAY – Shill Bidding

[MattKParticipant @mattk47317]

I've missed a few through bad connection etc. One site I used to use (bumblebee – police disposal) adds 10 mins from last bid if near the end so eliminates sniping.

[Gone AwayParticipant @goneaway]

Posted by MattK on 13/02/2013 19:27:40:

I always use option 2. I lose more than I win but thats OK. Option 3 breaks ebay rules but I have done some deals with the seller when going to view an item before. If they want to break the rules thats up to them.

It's within the rules actually if there are no existing bids on the item.

It's also within the rules (whether or not there are existing bids) if the seller is forced to withdraw because of circumstances beyond his control (e.g. lost in a fire, lost in a burglary, dog ate it, late discovery that goods were not as described etc). Of course you can drive a truck (or lorry) through this loophole.

[Tony JeffreeParticipant @tonyjeffree56510]

Posted by Lofty76 on 12/02/2013 22:39:42:

Its about time eBay stopped this last minute bidding frenzy by acting like a real auction, i.e. if a bid is placed in the last few seconds, the end time is increased accordingly – 5 – 10 minutes or so.

Many a time have I seen stuff sold for a fraction of its biddable value because the end time cuts off early.

Hating both shill bidding and sniping, I'll place a bid to register interest early on in the auction, then I'll watch till the end and put a bid in at the last minute or so, and I bid what I think its worth.

If I get outbid fair enough, but most times I'll win at a fraction of the bid price I put in which is hardly fair to the seller and wouldn't happen in a 'real' auction.

I'm sorry, but your distinction between "real" auctions and Ebay is spurious, to say the least. I would be willing to bet that more items are auctioned on Ebay these days than in all of what you call "real" auctions – so which is the real one?

Any auction operates under a set of rules. The rules for Ebay auctions just happen to be different from the rules that operate at Joe's Auction House down 't road, which in turn are different from the rules of a Dutch auction, or your local livestock auction, or the rules that operate in the Tokyo fish market tuna auctions (a fascinating spectator sport, but you have to be up well before sparrow fart to catch it! Lots of videos on Youtube).

If you want to use Ebay, figure out what the rules are, and then use them to your best advantage. There are lots of winning strategies – John S has described one that is very effective, David C has described another.

But please don't whinge about it not being a "real" auction – it sems to be "real" enough to be the biggest auction house on the planet.

Regards,

Tony

[Tony JeffreeParticipant @tonyjeffree56510]

Posted by Lofty76 on 13/02/2013 19:51:23:

MattK, Fair point, but as a seller you must on occasion think to yourself after the rapid flurry of bids in the last few minutes that the item could have sold for more if the timer hadn't shut it down.

I messed up on one recently when I was outbid in the last couple of minutes, I put in a new bid but forgot to press the confirm button, by the time I realised, it was too late.

The logic? keep the initial bids low, putting a high bid on at the start can easily see your top bid being broken in a couple of days, and then be double that by the end time.

I must admit I enjoy the bidding, I'd hate to be halfway into, say, an antiques auction when the auctioneer won't accept a bid due to a time limit.

I think there may be a few moans.

Where you messed up was failing to bid your own personal limit in the first place. If you treat it as the type of auction that you seem to enjoy bidding at, then you will continue to mess up in exactly the same way. With ebay, *because* there is a time limit, you have very little scope to re-consider when someone out-bids you in the last few minutes/seconds. So the only answer is to place a bid, before the end time, NOT for the amount that you hope in your wildest dreams you might get it for, BUT for the top price you would be happy to pay for it. That way, you don't end up moaning because you lost the auction or because you over-bid in the last-minute frenzy.

Regards,

Tony

[Cornish JackParticipant @cornishjack]

"I have used ebay for years and whilst it is true there are a few things against it, the bidding system is fair in my view"

MattK – the bidding system MAY be fair but the OP's thrust is in respect of shill bidding, and that is not only unfair, it is illegal. Even without private listing, it is difficult (but possible) to detect shill bids. With bidders being allowed anonymity, corruption (read THEFT) is almost guaranteed.

Rgds

Bill

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

Posted by Cornish Jack on 14/02/2013 11:38:50:

…….With bidders being allowed anonymity, corruption (read THEFT) is almost guaranteed.

Rgds

Bill

…. might explain why so many govenment and local council bids are "sealed" for both tendering and disposal…

Rgds

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

At least with Ebay you have a fixed finish time and acces to sniping programs.

I'm watching something on an online acution at the moment.

It should have finished at 10:30 this morning but due to bids being added to this auction and previous items it's now slated to finish at 3:10

Problem is at 3:10 I am due out driving and can't even use my phone so chances are I will loose this item I have spent 2 weeks watching.

If I had know it was a 3:10 finish i could have made arrangements, my only saving grace is that it will get moved to a later time i can get to.

[David LittlewoodParticipant @davidlittlewood51847]

Posted by jason udall on 14/02/2013 11:46:17:

Posted by Cornish Jack on 14/02/2013 11:38:50:

…….With bidders being allowed anonymity, corruption (read THEFT) is almost guaranteed.

Rgds

Bill

…. might explain why so many govenment and local council bids are "sealed" for both tendering and disposal…

The sealing of bids and the anonymity or otherwise of the bidders don't have to go together; it is perfectly reasonable to have sealed bids, but the names of the bidders could still be published.

David

[Tony JeffreeParticipant @tonyjeffree56510]

Posted by jason udall on 14/02/2013 11:46:17:

Posted by Cornish Jack on 14/02/2013 11:38:50:

…….With bidders being allowed anonymity, corruption (read THEFT) is almost guaranteed.

Rgds

Bill

…. might explain why so many govenment and local council bids are "sealed" for both tendering and disposal…

Actually, the point of sealed bids in gvt/local council dealings is to prevent corruption – council employees reading the bids & feeding back to their mates so they know what the competition has bid. The Ebay situation isn't the same at all – even if the auction isn't private, the bidders have no idea of the identity of their competition until the auction ends – only the seller can see the identity of the bidders while the auction is in progress.

Regards,

Tony

Edited By Tony Jeffree on 14/02/2013 16:55:20

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

Tony, it was only an opinion.

God knows how you would react if someone told you there was horse meat in the spag bol.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, I agree with Tony, only the sellers can see the bidders ID during the auction. I have on more than one occasion been the only bidder in private listings and can categorically say there was no shill bidding in those ones.

JS. you were probably watching the same PP auction as I was. I got outbid, just had to put mine on last night and hope for the best. Don't get any good enough signal where I work, so couldn't use my phone either.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 14/02/2013 19:09:09

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Nick, Yes PP auction and because of their stupid setup missed getting the wining bid on.

Someone got a CVA toolroom lathe for £55, damn thing would have weighed in for £150

Decided to bang a bucket bid on to miss the increments of £1.

Page said next bid is £56.00 so offered £78.00 and got a message saying "Will only accept whole pounds only " ??? So why state £56.00 ?

So then offer £78 and after the page keeps updating I get the Terms and conditions page ???

WTF why not put this up when you log on ? Then to make it worse scroll down and just about to click accept when it jumps back up to the top, pull it down, about to click and jumps back.

All the while the seconds are clicking away. Finally manage to get it held central in the screen and click accept.

Then get "Confirm this bid page "

Click confirm and then get, "The auction has finished "

Would have won this because there was no way anyone could have got a better bid on.

OK so I'm pissed that I lost this by virtue of their crap layout but you live and learn, never use PP auctions again.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi John, yes, I got the same message about whole pounds only. You might imagine how I was shouting at the 'puter that I only put in whole pounds. Tried it a couple of times, then thought maybe you could only put in the starting bid first but, no that didn't work, then tried a simple 10 and made some sort of comment like stupid %$*"!)( idea when it accepted it. I then had to do it all again to get my max bid that I was happy about and hope for the best. But I lost out.

Regards Nick.

Oh and there is no results page to see how much you lost out on.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 14/02/2013 22:18:40

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Somebody else was watching it down to the wire and it made £55.

In all fairness it was for spares or repair and an unknown quantity as opposed to a runner but the bits i wanted were there.

Seems stupid that they didn't have a reserve given that it will go over the weighbridge for £150

[Steve WithnellParticipant @stevewithnell34426]

Does this look like a shill bidder?

23% of 1395 bids on one seller

65 bid retractions in 6 months

Steve

[Cornish JackParticipant @cornishjack]

"65 bid retractions in 6 months"!!!!!

Bid retractions are the other version of shill bidding. Bidder makes his max bid, SELLER then bids until the original bidder's max bid is exceeded and then retracts his(her) last bid. Result – original bidder has been forced up to his max bid by shill bidding. Answer – if ANY bid retraction is noted, contact seller and point out that your ONLY valid bid is the one which preceded the FIRST of the retracting bidder's bid. Alternatively, point out that you will not complete any sale which has included a bid retraction … have done both of these and the responses were 'interesting'

Rgds

Bill!

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

Hi Steve,

Good test case for you – refer them to the site owner and ask their opinion.

Neil

[Steve WithnellParticipant @stevewithnell34426]

Guess what – got an eMail this morning "bid retracted". Which leaves me as the highest bidder at my first bid (not auto-incremented to my limit), so that's OK. It's a good one to flag to eBay though.

What I don't understand is how the retracting bidder (?!) was able to bid 1p more than my hghest auto bid, when the bid increments are £2 on this one.

Steve

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi There

Bidders can bid what they like.

I expect he placed a bid that just happened to be 1p over your top bid and Ebay would have accepted it if the bid increment was more than the minimum.

I would thing that the cancelled bidder may well just try to outbid you right at the last minute now he knows your maximum bid.

regards David

[Steve WithnellParticipant @stevewithnell34426]

Now the seller has withdrawn the item !

Steve

[RJWParticipant @rjw]

<Now the seller has withdrawn the item !>

Steve, chances are that the bidder who retracted placed the higher bid to find your top proxy bid, then made an 'off eBay' offer direct with to seller, this happens a lot with the sweetener of no fees to pay!

John

[Gone AwayParticipant @goneaway]

Here's another cute little eBay trick.

The listed Buy-It-Now price is one thing but as soon as you select a "style" (colour), the price flips up to another (higher) price.

(Unless you choose the "correct" one. See if you can guess which one).

Edited By Sid Herbage on 06/03/2013 23:00:28

[SteambuffParticipant @steambuff]

Sid

I see nothing wrong in this … different colours in this case are different prices. (They want to clear the pink ones)

A lot of shops on the high street do the same thing .. so not only ebay. How many times have you seen a price advertized in a shop window, only to find when you go in, that price is only for a odd size/colour and all the others are more expensive.

It is often used for different lengths of a product 1m, 2m etc or different thread sizes 1/8, 1/4, 1/2 etc.

Dave

Edited By Steambuff on 06/03/2013 23:10:21

[Gone AwayParticipant @goneaway]

Posted by Steambuff on 06/03/2013 23:09:16:

A lot of shops on the high street do the same thing .. so not only ebay. How many times have you seen a price advertized in a shop window, only to find when you go in, that price is only for a odd size/colour and all the others are more expensive.

Well … actually … never that I can recall. Different rules in different places I guess but here (Canada) that wouldn't be legal unless the the sign in the window explicitly stated that there were exceptions. (It might be in rather small print but it would be there.)

In this case, in the main listings, the picture shows samples in all colours with the single (and lower) BIN price. No exceptions. I think that's deceptive (and deliberately so) and I think eBay should stomp on it before it becomes the thin end of a wedge….. I guess we'll have to agree to differ.

[SpringbokParticipant @springbok]

Well if that happens to me I say to the sales person that is what it is advertised for shrug my shoulders and say have a nice day and start to walk out you will be amazed at the response most times.
They do not like loosing a sale, and are usually paid pennies and work on commision.
As far as Ebay is concerned if I am bidding for a item and it gets over my price I pull out, you will mostly see it turn up again.

Bob

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