Dumb question from a none driver

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by peak4 on 31/08/2019 15:29:47:

Mark, there's a wide variety of, sometimes conflicting, advice on this thread; I'd really make sure you understand all of the implications of your next action before you commit yourself.

I think you would get good advice from a forum such as Pepipoo, in their Flame Pit sub-forum, (they are motoring specialists, we are for the most part engineers with other interests and opinions).

Make sure you are able to provide concise and unambiguous answers to the following questions in your first missive should you chose to post there.

…

Bill

I'd keep Bill's advice on the back burner for use later if necessary. The problem with asking all those good questions on the Internet is there will be a lot of conflicting answers, more questions and more confusion.

Not worth the trouble. I don't think there's a problem with the Vehicle Registration because Mark's son was able to Tax and Insure it both of which involve DVLA checks.

Mark's main issue is avoiding a CAB entanglement due to a theoretical future suspicion his son has broken their rules, ie Mark needs to prove to debtors if asked that his son doesn't own a car worth more than £1000. Doesn't seem likely, but could be avoided with a little retrospective paperwork, and I doubt anyone is going chase a second-hand van.

The other stuff might be new problems but in my view it's not worth looking for extra trouble at this stage. For example, if the car is stolen or has outstanding finance due, then Mark will have sort that out whatever. Nothing Mark can do now will fix either of those problems so why worry, especially as they probably don't exist? There's no reason to suggest the sale was dishonest. Getting confusing advice about all the nasty things that could go wrong will only be a wind-up, causing unnecessary vexation. My advice, don't go looking for trouble.

Mark's position isn't awful, just imperfect. On the plus side he bought the car, his son has successfully registered as the keeper and has taxed and insured it (so it must have an MOT). All OK. Unless something else develops, the problem is only a potential need to prove that Mark owns the car, a question I think is unlikely to be asked. Everything else is a side-show.

Keep it simple and don't lose sleep fretting about complications. If it ain't bust don't fix it.

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 31/08/2019 16:31:36

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

I'd add the following,

When you son insured the car the insurance company will have asked who the owner was. Assuming he told them it was you there should be a record of that because in the case of ay a fire of theft claim the insurance should pay you, the owner, not your son. This is the same as if he had the car on lease or finance. Check the insurance documents.

As others have said, get a receipt for the sale to YOU at £700 from the seller with his name and address on it. It can be a scrap of paper torn off an envelope, push comes to shove it's up to any disputing it to prove it's fake, not you to prove it's real.

With insurance docs saying you are owner and a you having a receipt there shoul be no issue.

Robert G8RPI.

[Maurice TaylorParticipant @mauricetaylor82093]

I can’t believe how such a simple question has turned out to be so complicated.

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 31/08/2019 16:29:40:

Posted by peak4 on 31/08/2019 15:29:47:

Mark, there's a wide variety of, sometimes conflicting, advice on this thread; I'd really make sure you understand all of the implications of your next action before you commit yourself.

I think you would get good advice from a forum such as Pepipoo, in their Flame Pit sub-forum, (they are motoring specialists, we are for the most part engineers with other interests and opinions).

Make sure you are able to provide concise and unambiguous answers to the following questions in your first missive should you chose to post there.

…

Bill

I'd keep Bill's advice on the back burner for use later if necessary. The problem with asking all those good questions on the Internet is there will be a lot of conflicting answers, more questions and more confusion.

Not worth the trouble. I don't think there's a problem with the Vehicle Registration because Mark's son was able to Tax and Insure it both of which involve DVLA checks.

………………………………..

Keep it simple and don't lose sleep fretting about complications. If it ain't bust don't fix it.

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 31/08/2019 16:31:36

Dave, with the greatest respect please read what I actually wrote.

I wasn't suggesting asking those questions at random somewhere, rather I suggested a particular forum, and answering those questions himself in his posting not asking them of someone else.

The contributors on Pepipoo are experienced, but busy and sometimes rather abrupt; it saves time and misunderstanding if they have all the facts presented to them unambiguously right from the off. Many of the regulars there are lawyers, serving and retired police officers, magistrates etc. Wrong or misleading advice is normally very quickly peer reviewed and corrected.

I didn't suggest that the above problems existed, merely that it was helpful to be able to exclude them from the start, to save questions going back and forth.

From Mark's posts on here, there would appear to be two log books involved, one complete, and one new keeper's slip (Section10 V5c2)

I haven't seen them, so can't comment on their relevance; perhaps the Section 10 was from when the previous keeper bought the car, perhaps the previous keeper filled out the V5c with new keepers details, posted it as required, and just handed over the slip. The full log book may or not be a red herring.

There is also the complication of when all log books were replaced by the DVLA due to fraud concerns. I appreciate that one shouldn't but I have retained both copies of mine.

The folks on here don't know how the vehicle has been taxed by Mark and his son. If it was done before change of keeper's details were registered with the DVLA, then that may present issues.

I don't think there's a problem with the Vehicle Registration because Mark's son was able to Tax and Insure it both of which involve DVLA checks.

To answer this bit, one would need to know how it was taxed, Post Office, on-line, pre or post, change of keeper's details. I would assume that if they took the log book to the local PO, updated the keeper's details, and taxed it at the same time, all will be well, but we don't know if that's what happened.

Also Insurance is no longer checked when taxing a vehicle, unless you do it in Northern Ireland, though a current MOT is still required if applicable. From my experience insurers don't do any DVLA checks at all, just relying on you filling out the proposal form correctly.

As a non driver, Mark understandably won't be familiar with these procedures, hence trying to make sure he and his son get everything watertight and resolved successfully.

As regards contacting the DVLA with a query, yes it seems reasonable, but I didn't suggest doing it initially as the advice they give over the phone isn't always that reliable, particularly for slightly out of the ordinary requests. I speak from personal experience on that one.

N.B. Mark. I don't think it's been mentioned yet, but don't forget to keep an eye out for the new logbook/V5c. It should arrive within 4 weeks, though it's normally sooner. If it doesn't arrive, the instructions are in Section 10, though I'd phone them first before filling in the V62 form as there is a charge associated with that.

I'm sure it will all work out fine in time.

Cheers Bill

[jimmy bParticipant @jimmyb]

When I tax my vehicles online, insurance and MOT are checked by the DVLA.

Jim

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Posted by Maurice Taylor on 31/08/2019 19:04:26:

I can’t believe how such a simple question has turned out to be so complicated.

Hi Maurice, two anomalies really, first Mark should never of had the sellers V5C in his possession, although he should have been able to view it and check that the details of the vehicle were correct i. e. the VIN number being about the most important and secondly, Mark has not made it clear if a new keeper has actually been established.

Regards Nick.

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember19781]

[This posting has been removed]

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, as Jim has pointed out the DVLA will check if MOT and insurance are in place. You can also check for yourself if a car has a current MOT, tax and insurance online, however you must be privy to the insurance to view that, legally.

Regards Nick.

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Posted by jimmy b on 31/08/2019 19:51:42:

When I tax my vehicles online, insurance and MOT are checked by the DVLA.

Jim

 

Jim, That always used to be the case, but with the advent of Continuous Insurance Enforcement in 2012 (2013??) That insurance check at the point of taxation was removed, both at PO and on-line.

Yes you are legally required to have insurance when you use/tax the vehicle under CIE rules, but the check is done differently.
The insurance certificate is still required, and checked, checked at Post Offices in Northern Ireland. and MOTs are still electronically checked on-line and paper ones required at Post Offices.

It's all explained HERE 

As far as I can remember, this proposal was implemented, but I seem to have lost the bookmarked page as to when and under which bit of legislation. Please double check for yourself, before relying on what I've typed.

I think enforcement is now carried out by a regular data scrape, comparing MID with non-SORNed vehicles.

Unfortunately one of the consequences of this Government/DVLA cost saving measure (reducing a duplicated insurance check), is that the reminder to renew ones insurance whilst paying Vehicle Excise Duty, VED, is no longer present.

Obviously many folks renewed insurance at the same date as VED, as it was often related to when you bought the car. Trying to tax it before the end of the relevant month, but having it rejected, as the insurance was about to run out, has saved many people inadvertently driving uninsured.

Now you only find out when the fine comes through the post, or worse, you get stopped whilst actually driving, and awarded 6 points and a fine. Many people have found this out to their cost, when an insurance renewal has been forgotten or failed for some reason.

With the greatest respect to all on this forum , if anyone here is effectively going to offer, what amounts to legal advice, we must be able to show it is correct and ideally link to the original source.

Bill

p.s. Despite the title of the thread, the length and depth of it, clearly shows it wasn't a "Dumb Question" at all Mark.  

Edited By peak4 on 31/08/2019 20:38:27

Edited By peak4 on 31/08/2019 20:46:50

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Bill, when I re-taxed my car just last month online a pop up came up to say that MOT and insurance checks were OK.

Regards Nick.

[jimmy bParticipant @jimmyb]

Bill,

The DVLA do check if an MOT and insurance are in place.

I would trust the online check over a post office employee any day of the week.

Jim

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

I don't know if these points have been covered already because I started to lose the will to carry on reading! However;

A good few years back I decided to let my wife use a car that I own but had not used and was in storage and wasn't insured or taxed. She tried to insure it as we thought it would be good for her to gain some NCD in her own right rather than as a named driver on a policy I took out. This proved impossible as no insurer would offer cover unless she owned the car! Situation very similar to your son as I was effectively lending her the car.

Fast forward to a couple of years back and I borrowed a mate's trailer to do a long distance pick up of a machine. He told me he didn't have the trailer individually insured and was worried what would happen if it became a total loss. I checked with several sources including my own car insurer. I was told I could not legally insure said trailer as I had no insurable title in it. Ie if it became a total loss as I didn't own it the loss would not be mine and it could only be insured by the legal owner! It was confirmed as long as it was connected to my vehicle my vehicle insurance would cover any liability or damage I caused with it but would not cover the value of the trailer.

Apparently this is a legal principle of insurance that you can't insure something against loss unless you are the legal owner and it is you that will suffer from a loss. Interesting that in the case of the trailer I would have suffered loss as I would have had to pay for a replacement, but apparently this doesn't count!

In light of this it might be worth your son checking the insurance he has arranged and that it will cover the loss of the vehicle or damage to the vehicle as he doesn't own it.

I have no idea how this rule applies to the likes of lease / buy agreements where you pay monthly to use the vehicle or to the HP / Loan scenario other than perhaps under the terms of the agreement you are liable for the whole debt so there is a quantifiable personal loss? Maybe someone knows the definitive answer to this? I can't see how it works with a hire car either as you don't buy the car for a week!

The OP may seem to have posted a simple question but I think the answer is not so simple despite some comments to the contrary.

Paul.

[Pete RimmerParticipant @peterimmer30576]

Posted by Paul Kemp on 01/09/2019 22:45:57:

Apparently this is a legal principle of insurance that you can't insure something against loss unless you are the legal owner and it is you that will suffer from a loss.

Paul.

My wife's car that I bought new is registered in my name but my wife is the only driver and she has a fully comp policy on it. It was done like this because I bought it for her as a birthday surprise. The insurer knows this and is perfectly happy with it. I am the owner, she is the insured.

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Posted by Pete Rimmer on 02/09/2019 01:16:06:

Posted by Paul Kemp on 01/09/2019 22:45:57:

Apparently this is a legal principle of insurance that you can't insure something against loss unless you are the legal owner and it is you that will suffer from a loss.

Paul.

My wife's car that I bought new is registered in my name but my wife is the only driver and she has a fully comp policy on it. It was done like this because I bought it for her as a birthday surprise. The insurer knows this and is perfectly happy with it. I am the owner, she is the insured.

Maybe things have changed now, I remember being pretty annoyed at the time and couldn't understand what the problem was. She tried half a dozen or more companies, all gave the same answer. She also still had contacts in the insurance business as she used to work for a broker so we contacted them and they couldn't help either. Doesn't explain the trailer which was only a couple of years back although I only tried 3 companies for that. Would be interested to know the definitive position.

Paul.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Anyone can PAY for insurance on a car but if they are not the owner the owner ust be named the benificary of the policy. This is common and happes hundreads of time every day.
What won't happen is multiple payouts if there are multiple policies covering the same loss.
What insrance companies don't like is someone with good history insuring a second car with a less experinced named driver. They (often rightly) assume the second car is actually the main vehicle for the higher risk driver.
So the non owner insuring a car as sole driver (as in OP's case) should not be an issue.. And this appears to be the caase as the OP has stated the car is insured his son.
Unfortunatly this post has turned into a bunch of opinons and anecdotes most of with are no help whatsoever to the OP who doess not drive.

Robertt G8RPI.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Paul Kemp on 02/09/2019 07:45:03:

Posted by Pete Rimmer on 02/09/2019 01:16:06:

Posted by Paul Kemp on 01/09/2019 22:45:57:

Apparently this is a legal principle of insurance that you can't insure something against loss unless you are the legal owner and it is you that will suffer from a loss.

Paul.

My wife's car that I bought new is registered in my name but my wife is the only driver and she has a fully comp policy on it. It was done like this because I bought it for her as a birthday surprise. The insurer knows this and is perfectly happy with it. I am the owner, she is the insured.

Maybe things have changed now, I remember being pretty annoyed at the time and couldn't understand what the problem was. She tried half a dozen or more companies, all gave the same answer. She also still had contacts in the insurance business as she used to work for a broker so we contacted them and they couldn't help either. Doesn't explain the trailer which was only a couple of years back although I only tried 3 companies for that. Would be interested to know the definitive position.

Paul.

It's true you can't go around randomly insuring other people's property and claiming money if it gets damaged!

But the driver and owner being different people is very common in motor insurance. Hire Cars, Company Cars, Lease Arrangements, Hire Purchase, and Commercial Vehicles etc are all driven by non-owners.

It works like this. Insurers require that the client has 'Insurable Interest', that is proof the driver will lose financially in the event of an accident. One way of establishing 'Insurable Interest' is ownership (easy and obvious). Another way is legal liability, or a contract (more complicated).

I think the problem is your wife asked to insure a car borrowed from someone who hadn't established a claim against her. In the absence of any paperwork showing 'Insurable Interest', you had effectively agreed you wouldn't go after her for the money if she destroyed the car. This is why I suggested Mark have a piece of paper agreeing his son would either hire his car or buy it over time : it establishes Mark's right to compensation as well as ticking the CAB ownership box.

How you ask insurance questions can make a big difference. In the past I bought insurance from experts who would either match my clumsy explanation to a policy or explain what I needed to do to get insurance. Much of this service seems to have gone. To keep costs down most consumer policies are narrowly defined to cover risks the Insurer understands and can quantify statistically. Policies cover standard situations, the customer is expected to read the small-print, and most of the expensive experts are replaced by a call-centre staffed by students. Insurers in this market keep costs down by not negotiating special cases. (Other parts of the Insurance Industry are happy to negotiate risk as is done for insuring North Sea Oil Rigs or against a poor harvest. Not easy to contact them and it's not cheap. )

All you had to do was give your wife the car, or hire it to her, or contract her to cover your loss in the event of an accident. Very similar with a trailer borrowed casually from a friend. Towing the trailer, your ordinary insurance covers damage to your car and third-party claims, but not the value of the trailer without proof of 'Insurable Interest'.

I don't know what Trailer Hire companies do; I suspect they insure the value of their trailer themselves and don't recover the cost from the drivers insurance. The cover would be paid for out of the hire fee.

I don't think Mark need worry much about this particular circumstance. The worst that could happen is the insurer refusing to pay the trade-in value of a van that cost £700. I think they would pay if Mark's son could show he was hiring or buying the van from his dad on an instalment plan, or contacted to return the van in roadworthy condition.

Dave

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember19781]

[This posting has been removed]

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, reading the above few posts is exactly why I said that legal advice in the way of a solicitor would be the best option for Mark in a situation he seems to be in. The solicitor one would choose should be one that is familiar with motoring law. You need to be sure what you are doing when you are thinking of hiring anything to do with vehicles, as insurance can be costly, again something you need legal advice on if you don't know.

Regards Nick.

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember19781]

[This posting has been removed]

[SteambuffParticipant @steambuff]

Posted by Pete Rimmer on 02/09/2019 01:16:06:

Posted by Paul Kemp on 01/09/2019 22:45:57:

Apparently this is a legal principle of insurance that you can't insure something against loss unless you are the legal owner and it is you that will suffer from a loss.

Paul.

My wife's car that I bought new is registered in my name but my wife is the only driver and she has a fully comp policy on it. It was done like this because I bought it for her as a birthday surprise. The insurer knows this and is perfectly happy with it. I am the owner, she is the insured.

Since you registered the car in your name you are the Keeper ….

But, since you gave your wife the car as a present …. She is now the owner!

Dave

[mark smith 20Participant @marksmith20]

Just an update i yesterday received a receipt in my name as owner so with the facebook conversation and screen shots off the phone showing the seller in the conversation i feel i have enough proof of purchase.

The V5c change of keeper has been done online.

Initial insurance my son took out on the van was wrong due to mix up between comparison site and insurance company not having me as owner of vehicle down on policy and not being covered for commuting to and from work.When contacted they said my son would have to either become the owner or cancel policy .So cancel policy it was.

Cancelled insurance today (within 14 day cool off period) £72 refund given on initial deposit.

Took out new policy today which has me as owner stated on the policy and my son as the keeper, and covers for commuting to and from work.

So everything seem alright i think.

thanks everyone for all the advice

mark

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember19781]

[This posting has been removed]

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Mark, good to hear you got things sorted.

Regards Nick.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Well done, Mark … good result

MichaelG.

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Posted by mark smith 20 on 04/09/2019 20:00:08:

Just an update i yesterday received a receipt in my name as owner so with the facebook conversation and screen shots off the phone showing the seller in the conversation i feel i have enough proof of purchase.

The V5c change of keeper has been done online.

Initial insurance my son took out on the van was wrong due to mix up between comparison site and insurance company not having me as owner of vehicle down on policy and not being covered for commuting to and from work.When contacted they said my son would have to either become the owner or cancel policy .So cancel policy it was.

Cancelled insurance today (within 14 day cool off period) £72 refund given on initial deposit.

Took out new policy today which has me as owner stated on the policy and my son as the keeper, and covers for commuting to and from work.

So everything seem alright i think.

thanks everyone for all the advice

mark

Mark, not wishing to concern you, but I'm not clear when ownership was changed, and tax paid; not that it's any of my business of course.
May I suggest you, or your son, checks the tax status on-line, both now, and in a couple or three weeks time, just to be on the safe side. That link will also provide somewhere for you to check the insurance is registered on MID, who aim to get it updated within 48 hours, but claim it can take up to a week.

May I also suggest that your son carries a printout of the new insurance certificate with him in the meantime, just in case an ANPR check flags something up, due to the previous insurance being cancelled.

I'm glad all worked out OK, and hope your son gets everything back on track.

Bill

Edited By peak4 on 04/09/2019 22:23:16

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