Drummond / Myford M Headstock Bearing

[geoff walker 1Participant @geoffwalker1]

James,

Go to the drummond web site and SEARCH "m type poor finish cured" in BOTH the files and the photos.

They explain option 2 in detail, "Eugenes bearing dodge".

I've done it and it helps a lot with end float adjustment of the spindle, highly recommended.

Details of the bearing you need is in the drummond file.

Geoff

[EugeneParticipant @eugene]

Gosh, whatever did I start?

The original idea for the extra rear thrust bearing came to me in desparation when I was searching for a cure to constant chattering under virtually all operating conditions.

Reading other comments it seems that some M Types are very prone to the condition and some not so much; mine was sore afflicted, it was a really miserable experience for a beginner, I just couldn't produce anything that looked like a job.

Just prior to wrist slashing time I noticed that the chatter was ameliorated on facing cuts provided that the cutting tool was always moving, but if the cut was paused, the chatter kicked back in. I surmised that the axial tool pressure was compensating for a degree of end float for which the original captive ball type thrust bearing couldn't compensate. That's still the theory, but I'm open to offers.

Putting another, larger, thrust bearing "up the sharp end" seems to me an obvious further improvement step that just has to be worthwhile …. why didn't I think of that? As The Management sometimes says,"Because your'e stupid." Well done David.

The short bed M Type that was fitted up with the NTL some time back isn't due for any headstock work for a while, but the long bed version that's currently being refurbed will certainly get the full works.

Eug

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

A couple of things to consider re putting roller thrust bearing at the chuck end as shown pop into mind. (Edit: Although I see on going back over this old thread that is has been done already with success by some.)

One is the ingress of swarf into the roller bearing behind the chuck. There is no seal and no room to put one. This could quickly wreck the bearing and negate any possible gains.

The other is that putting the thrust bearing at the chuck end would move the spindle toward the tailstock by the thickness of the bearing and its two flat ground washers. That's quite a bit. So well worn shafts in well worn bearings may not like the disturbance.

I'd leave the thrust bearing in its original location at the far end of the operation. It's hard to imagine the spindle flexing enough under axial compression to create chatter. When I replaced my original with a modern roller bearing, I used washers to make it the same thickness as the original bearing so the shaft stayed in the exact same location so the journals and bearings interfaced as they always did for the past 80+ years.

Then add the second roller thrust bearing on the outer end if you feel it's needed. It seems to have greatly improved the lathe for most who have tried it. Sadly I did not notice any great difference, but my lathe bearings and bed and gibs etc were all in very good condition and adjusted up just so and chatter was not a great problem anyhow.

For me, adjusting the headstock bearings every now and again seems to be critical on this lathe, and adjusting them so they lock up without the pinch bolts then turn the pinch bolts in until the spindle just rotates with barely, barely perceptible drag. So a little on the tight side in other words. It helps a lot too, to pull out the bearings and clean all the crud and burrs off the little keystone pieces and the slots in the bearings they fit into, so they are free to move unhindered. Likewise, cleaning up the angled noses of the pinch bolts.

This bearing adjustment seems, on mine, to have more influence on chatter than spindle end float and thrust bearings. But on machines with 80 years of wear it is certain to vary from machine to machine. I think mine had the bed remachined/scraped by a PO and the bearings relined with whitemetal so is probably not typical of the breed.

Edited By Hopper on 24/06/2018 02:55:49

Edited By Hopper on 24/06/2018 03:10:07

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

PS, just noticed on your other thread you said you have 5 thou play in the headstock bearings. Tighten that up to zero play, zero drag (or just perceptible drag) and then adjust up the standard thrust bearing and see how your lathe performs then. Then add the extra left-hand end thrust bearing per Eugene's instructions and see what that does for you.

[James Jenkins 1Participant @jamesjenkins1]

Hi all,

Thanks so much for your replies. I have two lathes to do, my treadle Drummond M & my long bed Myford M, which is going to be powered. I think, as I have the bearings already, I will do option 2 (Eugene's method) on the treadle and get that set up correctly, then think about (taking into consideration the concerns some have raised) testing option 1 on the Myford when I set that up.

Many thanks for your input – really appreciated.

James

[James Jenkins 1Participant @jamesjenkins1]

I have tightened the bearings and added the option 2 bearing today (Eugene's Method). The movement has now been reduced to around 0.001" to 0.0015". I was mindful that it was very warm down there and that it is a treadle lathe! The effort to turn it has been increased, not dramatically or unmanageably, but noticeably.

Many thanks for your help with this.

James

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Fitting drip oilers to the tops of the pinch bolts might help reduce friction too. The old oil can when you think of it is a bit hit'n'miss. You can turn up a threaded adaptor with a tapered nose that fits in the original pinch bolts and soft solder it in place.Synthetic engine oil works pretty well and is plenty slippery.

Edited By Hopper on 26/06/2018 00:43:05

[David George 1Participant @davidgeorge1]

There is a drawing in my albums of pinch bolt lubricator with pictures of drip feed oilers if you need any information drop me a message.

 

David

Edited By David George 1 on 26/06/2018 08:05:51

[James Jenkins 1Participant @jamesjenkins1]

Hi – thanks so much for this. Both mine actually already have these on, so that saves me a job! For a future project I'd love to make a couple of glass vile drip oilers (probably not the correct term – but I suspect you know what I mean!).

Has anyone ever made a quick change tool holder for their Drummond/Myford M?

James

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

No, but I made a fourway toolpost in teh Myford style. Machined it out of a solid block of steel in the lathe itself, using an end mill held in the three jaw chuck and the toolpost set on the topslide with suitable packers under it. Works real well.

The large hole required up the middle of the M type toolpost is not compatible with the design of most QC toolposts.

[David George 1Participant @davidgeorge1]

I have fitted a Myford quick change tool post to my M type. Have a look in my album complete with sketch drawing and pictures.

David

[James Jenkins 1Participant @jamesjenkins1]

Hi all,

Apologies for igniting an old thread, but hoping I can get some advice.

I was turning some aluminium bronze last week and had a lovely finish, even with fairly heavy cuts. Decided to let everything cool, to take closer measurements and when I started up again I got a rotten finish. I decided that the headstock bearing must need adjustment, as I was never 100% happy with it. When I tried to tighten it found I couldn't get any sort of resistance, despite tightening it really quite hard (hammer on c-spanner).

I happen to have another old M laying around, so today I took out the front bearing in this and used it on the lathe, where I was indeed able to tighten the bearing, first so that I could just turn it by hand and then when the oiler was tightened down so that it turned with some slight resistance.

With this level of tightness I was able to get it so that a 9" wooden down in a large 3 jaw chuck could be pushed upwards so that the check moved up around 2 thou. This is cold.

Do the above settings seem about right? With the lathe be fine with another lathe's bearing in it?

Many thanks,

James

[David George 1Participant @davidgeorge1]

Hi James I would try and tighten it a bit more I can only get a half a thou movement on my M Type but you should check out temperature when running mine gets warm after running a while but not hot. You should have no problem changing the bush from another headstock but check for alignment after. Have you put in the extra thrust bearing at the chuck end, it makes the finnish much improved, look back in this thread.

David

Edited By David George 1 on 17/01/2019 08:06:14

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Puts me in mind of another issue, worn bronze bearings on old Drummonds

There must be a lot coming to the end of the road

Need to buy some babbit for a rainy day

A kind soul in here provided this supplier many moons ago, not cheep I'm afraid

Edited By Ady1 on 17/01/2019 11:03:30

[James Jenkins 1Participant @jamesjenkins1]

Hi,

Thanks for your replies. Yes, I have the additional bearing in. Would babbit be better than turning a new one from bronze?

I'll have another look tomorrow, I can hear the motor working harder than it was, so I am a bit nervous about tightening much more, but I didn't think I would get it better than 2 thou. Although I suppose it all depends a bit on how hard you are pulling / pushing to get a reading.

James

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Would babbit be better than turning a new one from bronze?

No idea, but could be a lot easier to do and a lot cheaper in the long run

Nice new bearings are probably best but…

Even ME has almost nothing on babbitt after 1940, I think I got 2 hits on articles

But they used it on full size loco wheels so there's no loading wear worries

Can also experiment with it on anything you build should the notion arise

old article

Edited By Ady1 on 17/01/2019 11:23:25

[Charles Crowther-SmithParticipant @charlescrowther-smith37893]

Sorry for digging up an old thread but I have aquired a 47 M type and I am experiencing chatter when taking small face cuts, chatter seems to be from rear of spindle, so I have ordered both front and rear bearings as suggested, and will strip clean, adjust spindle bearings next weekend.

I have a question that may offend some, hypothetically, as an academic exersise only – how feasible would it be to install angular contact bearings or tapered roller bearings in place of the oilite ones? Are the headstock bearing bores tapered? Has anybody already done such a monsterous thing to such a beautiful piece of history?

[David George 1Participant @davidgeorge1]

Hi Charles welcome to the forum. As another M Type owner I use it to make many parts very accurately and mostly easily for the lathe size. I have three thrust bearings on my lathe and have no problem with chatter except if I am doing something silly. There has been at least one lathe which had the bearings changed to angular contact but it involved making a new spindle and boring the headstock to take the new bearings. I don't remember the name of the person but it just seemed a step to far for a lathe that was made around 1940 ish. The main reason to replace the bearings was to increase the spindle speed which the original phosphor bronze bearing limit it to a little under 1000 rpm. There is a handbook which gives you the correct way to adjust the bearings.

https://groups.io/g/drummondlathe/topic/full_handbook_for_lathe/88179092?p=,,,20,0,0,0::recentpostdate/sticky,,,20,2,0,88179092,previd=1641764595678450069,nextid=1639580522581460687&previd=1641764595678450069&nextid=1639580522581460687

The bronze bearings have a small wedge inserted into the side of the bearings to lock them in use and they can get wedged so that they don't release when needed to and if you try to tighten the front ring it can strip the thread if they don't release when you try to adjust them. When adjusting my bearings I slacken the oiler bolt which is pushing the wedge into the slot and then loosen the bearing to make sure it is free then tighten till it slows the spindle. When you tighten the oiler bolt it slightly opens up the bearing very slightly to a low just enough clearance for oil lube.

I hope this helps message me if you want any further info.

David

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

I put a headstock adjusting thread here

[Charles Crowther-SmithParticipant @charlescrowther-smith37893]

Thanks guys, i'm going to wait until I get a proper c-spanner as mole grips or chizel is a non starter.

David if you remember the name of the fellow who did that modification I would be interested as extensive googling has not returned any info, If I were to do it it would be to a second / spare headstock if I am lucky enough to find one. I have access to a milling machine at work.

I like the look of your apron mod to correct the rotation direction, but all in good time I suppose.

Thanks both

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