Diamond tool holder.

[ChrisParticipant @chris16039]

I have recently watched the sales demo video on the diamond tool holder which seem very impressive. I am also aware that in my ‘boring question’ thread I was encouraged to work with something other than my faithful carbide tip tool. PLUS the fact that I am aware that nice sharp shoulders are essential sometimes. AND the fact that you have encouraged me to sharpen my own tools.

Is this tool any good. At £80 it aint cheap but if it is as good as the sales vid then it is impressive.

(Note for Meyrick; I bought the Harold Hall book and I am collecting the bits to make the off hand grinding table).

Chris

[ChrisParticipant @chris16039]

[mgjParticipant @mgj]

Well there are the Haves (Lambs of God) and the Have Nots (Spawn of Satan) when it comes to tool grinders. I am glad to hear that you are to be one of the Chosen and I am sure you will find it extremely useful.

 

Is this tool worth £80 in absolute terms. Yes, IMO I have been given a tangential tool by CS and its just the dogs. Use if for everything -replaced everything else (except specific tools). The Diamond one has a different sharpening jig which includes screwcutting angles. So you are getting a brilliant knife tool plus metric and imperial screwcutting. 

 

Is it worth it to you at this stage? Well you have carbide and some spare tips so you can cut metal. If you can afford it outright, I’d say go for it. If its a (financial) choice between additional capability in some other area of tooling and a Diamond tool which essentially repeats existing capability then the answer might be wait and buy capability. Unless its the screwcutting facility which sells it because that alone would be cheaper than buying carbide external threading tools. (But more than grinding them from existing tool steel)

 

You could make one – of course, and Circlip and others will quite rightly  push you in that direction. But, if as you are, you’re head down in a project already, the time may be more useful than the cash? 

 

How do I know its any good – because it uses the same 12/12 angles, so the cutting angles are identical, and the engineering of both sharpening jig and tool clamping  look very competently done.

[John CParticipant @johnc47954]

I’ll throw my hat into the ring on this one – I have the diamond tool holder, and I agree with Merick – it’s the canine undercarriage as far as I’m concerned.  It may not even be as expensive as you quote – I’m sure my Myford size one wasn’t , and very quick delivery from the UK distributors.  It cuts very well and resharpening is easy.  The only caution I have is that  – for me, cutting mild steel – if the point isn’t dead on centre height and you are facing, the ‘pip’ on the turned material can tear a flake off the point of the tool.  I’m very aware that this may be my incorrect use, and I’m not in any way talking down the tool – just somethinng to be aware of.  I’ve modified the grinding rest on a ‘Tormek’ wetstone grinder for use with the grinding jig, which I find gives very good results.  You can buy some 1/4 tool steel and make a number of cutters to ensure you always have a sharp one to hand. 

 

And just for Circlip and the others – I wish I’d got the Diamond before shelling out for various carbide insert tools – which probably cost more if I add them up!

 

John ( no connection to Diamond Tools)

[russellParticipant @russell]

there’s another long thread on this tool in the forums – i think the general consensus is that it works well. that’s my experience, i suspect a lot of the reason is the sharpening jig which means its easy to get a good grind. i have an elderly (actually ancient!) drummond B type which needs all the help it can get.

 

-russell

 

[chris stephensParticipant @chrisstephens63393]

Hi Chris,

I thought I would let MGJ have first “dibs”, now I shall add a few comments.

You ask if it is worth it, to be fair the answer is both yes and no. If you can spare the time, maybe a couple of hours, then make one yourself, it’s much more satisfaction inducing. If cash is a bit short, again make one yourself. I would quite understand why if you can afford to buy and your time is more important to you for other things, then it is no sin to buy.

The important thing is that you get yourself one, there is not one person I have shown the tool holder to who has not been impressed. Correction, there is not one person I have demonstrated the tool holder to that has not been impressed. The video for the commercial item is not “hype” or something that takes years of practice to get right, it would work first time every time. As John says get the thing cutting on centre height, this is so easy to do just slide the tool up or down in the holder.

 

The mentioned screw cutting ability is particularly good, but with a proviso, that is going up to a shoulder or threading near the chuck.  I made a different holder that over comes this problem and one day i will write it up, if there were to be enough interest. 

 

This tool when used for thread cutting benefits from the offset top slide method, combined with a cross slide stop.The offset method makes it cut on the sharp edge., which then cuts beautifully cleanly.

 

 When you get your tool you will find that a standard grinder tool rest is adequate to sharpen a tangential tool, but a proper grinder rest will be of great use for other things.

 

To sum up, if you can spare the time to make a grinder rest, then you can spare the time to make a tangential holder, too. If not , yes, it is worth buying even at that price.

 

The good book is wrong to say that “pride” is a sin, you can take pride in doing something well, without fear of going to Hell. So make one and feel proud!

 

Note to MGJ, that holder is only on loan till I make you one of the upgraded ones, without the annoying screw, which will then be yours to keep.

 chriStephens

[Les Jones 1Participant @lesjones1]

Hi Chris,   (Chris S)

                             I for one would be interested in making one of these tool holders

If you can find the time to write it up. I think writing it up probably takes longer than making it. I certainly found this when I started to get my tachometer design in a form that could be published. I keep thinking of things that need adding like static precautions and explaining resistor colour codes.

Les.

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

OK, we’ll try this one again. For the masses, the holder in question is called a “Tangential turning tool holder” the basic design of which goes back to nearly more or less a hundred (100) years.

 

  Now for the REALLY observent of us, if you go back to the Forum header page (The one where all the FREE downloads are, and look for the free “Sample versions of M/E and MEW, click on the one for MEW iss. 156 and look down the contents listings  for ref. to the affore mentioned item.

 

    Simples.

[Hugh GilhespieParticipant @hughgilhespie56163]

Hi Chris S,

 

I am with Les on this and am also interested in making your adapted tool holder. So, a big please and put pen to paper – or at least fingers on keys.

 

Regards,

 

Hugh

[Les Jones 1Participant @lesjones1]

Hi Circlip,

                The diamond tool holder is slightly different to the tangential one. Instead of the tool bit fitting into a slot it fits into a V grove.This means the  corner of the bit points towards the work piece when the tool holder is perpendicular to the lathe axis. With the tangential tool one edge of the tool bit would be almost parallel with the work piece.

Les.

[chris stephensParticipant @chrisstephens63393]

Hi Circlip,

If one wishes to be more correct, it was manufactured in the mid Victorian era,  circa 1885 you can do the maths, and was called the “Haydon Tool Holder” or “Cutter Bar”. This was a variation or modernisation of the then common “swan neck” tool.

 

Diamond clearly refers to the top surface of the tool bit, while Tangential refers to the  axis of the tool (more or less) and the tools point of contact. You can have a Tangential tool with a round tool bit, witness the GHT ball turner. So, if one wishes to give the tool a “new” name, it would have to have “Diamond” there somewhere, as well as “tangential” to distinguish it from a round bit-ed one, don’t you think?

 

The tool holder described in the magazine is worthy of making, but I feel would benefit from being made to take 1/4″ Cobalt HSS rather than 1/8″, but either way it is worth having one in your tool kit.

 

“Simples”   I think you are watching far too much TV, go out and make something! 

chriStephens 

[mgjParticipant @mgj]

Are we not in danger of  getting tangled? The tangential bit is the tool held at a cutting angle 12/12 I  believe.

 

How you hold it precisely at that compound angle is your choice: clamp, tunnel, tube, bolt or whatever. 

Edited By meyrick griffith-jones on 18/02/2010 17:35:21

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Vol 1 No7 July 1898 Model Engineer and Amature Electrician shows a tangential tool holder, it uses round pieces of tool steel. Ian S C

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

125 Years Chris, yes, MORE or less 100, clue was in the use of English, and no, I wasn’t reffering to the swan neck. Seems my computer is suffering from some sort of hiccup as the picture and description of issue 156 page 12 seems as near to the “Diamond Toolholder” as one can get?? and anyone wanting to support the Australian economy should be ashamed of themselves. OH, forgot, LOTS have been supporting that  of the far East, so helping the collonials ain’t too bad.

 

    Simples! (Even GOD rested on the seventh day Chris)

 

  Regards 

Edited By Circlip on 19/02/2010 13:20:03

[ivan kusturaParticipant @ivankustura28369]

G’day to all.

Just bought the diamond tool holder and i regret not knowing about it earlier. I paid $132 Aussie dollars for it and another $25 dollars for some extra HSS bits ,ground for plain turning and threading. After i added up what my other lathe tools cost me, $157 AUS was peanuts. I will eventualy have to buy more HSS bits but its alot cheaper then $86 AUS for a pack of 6 replaceable carbide tips for plain turning then another $89 AUS for external threading tips. If the diamond tool holder could do internal threads, i would never need to take the the holder of the tool post, except for parting, knurling etc. Sitting in my top lathe tool drawer gathering dust are (1) Turning tool kit $253 AUS (2) Threading tool kit $167AUS (3) Quick change tool post $211 AUS (dont need this as Chris said, slide the bit up or down to centre height) and about another $220 AUS in spare replaceable tips.

OH, Circlip i dont want to seem rude, but there is no shame in buying a useful product , or helping a fellow engineer no mater where it or he is from. I say this with a Myford in my garage workshop and a Land Rover Disco in my driveway. Sorry mate but the wife drives a Holden Commodore, it seems she has the same ideology as you..

Regards

( I have no connections to Diamond Tool Holder , i just love their product&nbsp

[chris stephensParticipant @chrisstephens63393]

Hi Guys,

Sorry  Les, I don’t quite see the point you are making., but then I have not yet taken a close look at a “real” Diamond tool holder.  The pictures are not good enough to see minute differences in angles. Perhaps I should buy one and take a look? Maybe not, I am far too mean.

 

Circlip, of course you must have your day off once a week, but remember they don’t show adverts on the BBC! I hope you are not equating yourself to an omnipresent omnipotent being, though .

Speaking of which, sorry if this is too OT for some, why did the said omnipresent, omnipotent being need a day off? If he had not rushed to finish his task in 6 days instead of taking 7, he might not have made such a botched job of creating the World and its contents. On the other hand perhaps it was all intended to be as it is, and the said being must really love idiots, for he created so many of them.

Back On Topic, let the above be a lesson to all you Engineers, take your time and do it properly. On a twenty year project another few hours is nothing.

 

Ivan, welcome to the Diamond tool holders appreciation society. It never ceases to amaze me that the “Diamond”, or whatever we are going to call it, holder is not the first thing taught to newbies. If neophytes knew from the start, then I am sure they would not have such worries over grinding angles and matching the angles to whatever metal they are turning. Granted that Carbide tip’s sales might suffer a tad, but hobbyists use so little compared to industry that a few pence drop in Sandvik’s bosses bonus will not matter one iota.

chriStephens 

 

 

 

 

[Les Jones 1Participant @lesjones1]

Hi Chris,

                 When I thought about Meyrick’s comments about the geometry of the diamond tool and the tangential tool I realised he was right. Whichever way the tool bit is griped it is still presented to the work piece  in the same way. Looking at the picture on page 14 of issue156 (The bottom of last page of the article on the tangential tool.) the picture of the diamond tool looks like the bit is held in a V grove and clamped on the opposite corner. I originally thought that the shank was straight but on closer inspection I think front has a bend in it. I have looked at the diamond tool website but I am still not sure exactly how it is made. I will make a point to see if anyone is selling them at the Harrogate exhibition in May. If so I will have a closer look.

I made a scaled up version (To take 0.25″ bits.) of the design in issue 156 today and it seems to work well. The only problem I can see is that facing the end of a large bar I think the tool clamp screw may hit the work piece. I only tried it on small diameter bar.

 

I just found I had been logged out when clicking the post button but using the back arrow on the browser displayed the page I had just typed which enabled me to copy it before logging back in.

Les.

[chris stephensParticipant @chrisstephens63393]

Hi Les,

Well done for making a holder, you wont regret the time spent on it. 

Re your second para. can you lower the holder and then raise the tool bit back to centre height, this will give you more clearance for the clamp screw. when facing.

 

I might put my version of the threading tool holder on the SMEE stand at Harrogate, but it will not impress anyone just sitting there, it  really has to be demonstrated to show how well it works. This will have to wait for Sandown at the end of the year.

chriStephens

PS when you log in, click the box that says “remember me” and you don’t get timed out so much. 

[mgjParticipant @mgj]

One for the heretical anti- carbide -ite(s).

 

 

Noting also that on a tangential toolholder one can chip the tip – as you can with any HSS. But then of course most of the Godly, tend to get the tool at centre height, and only rarely get caught with an unsupported free end that does an upward jump at an untoward moment.

 

The trouble is that there is an awful lot of carbide. I’m not a great fan of those painted coloured tools with carbide brazed on. I find the carbide pretty brittle, and a pain to sharpen.

 

Go now to indexable carbide, and despite the interrupted cuts, you don’t see too many milling cutters failing from brittle loadings. If you look at the Sandvik catalogue  (which is the only one I have!), you have 3 sections for steel. Finishing, medium machining and roughing. And within each section, you have different tips for good, average and difficult conditions. (difficult being interrupted cuts and poor support)

 

I accept that HSS is more forgiving, and I still love my tangential, but those who write carbide off as being too brittle are being a little hasty.  I agree it can be  expensive to have a tip for every material and every set of conditions, but like everything else, its tools for the job. And one is darned glad of a tough grade when you hit a hard spot in a casting, because that will have your HSS in bits quick as blinking.

[chris stephensParticipant @chrisstephens63393]

Hi Meyrick,

Couldn’t agree more, it’s just another case of the right tool for the job. 

There are times when the only tool for the job is made from Tungsten ( or Titanium) Carbide and there are times when a HSS tool is more than adequate, if not ideal, for the job. Anyone who chooses one to the exclusion of the other is working with one hand tied behind their back.

In defence of the HSS user, there are so many Carbide tips that the chances of the rank amateur picking the right tip is negligible. As for brazed tips they come ground but not sharpened so beware, and yes they are cheaply made from cheap grade carbide.  Milling cutter tips are much less brittle but then they are not really suitable for turning are they?

chriStephens 

[mgjParticipant @mgj]

Well a single insert milling cutter makes a pretty demon boring bar.

 

I really like the point about one hand tied behind one’s back – the only thing about HSS is you have to be able to sharpen it effectively, and effectively is a personal definition. 

 

The beauty of the tangential is that it’s so simple to sharpen but, that’s only the knife tool, and some of us have a whole garage full of QC holders all with tools in use fitted.

 

To get the best out of HSS, there are many types of tool that one needs over a career, some ground accurately, that some sort of sharpening device is necessary. Whilst there are some who claim not, they are up against enough heavyweights to be safely ignored. GHT, Tubal Cain, Ivan Law, Bradley – in fact there is hardly a writer of any authority on the subject of ME who doesn’t regard some kind of controlled sharpening as essential and that’s before you start tackling drills and milling cutters. 

 

Even the tangential requires a jig for optimum results. 

 

Maybe I just need to get better at grinding offhand -but then why should I? When I can have it perfect – out of a dispenser or off the grinder.? 

Edited By meyrick griffith-jones on 20/02/2010 21:02:22

[Frank DolmanParticipant @frankdolman72357]

     Excellent though most aspects of these ingenious devices are, it seems

   to me that there is a difficulty that has not been mentioned.  On intermittent

   cuts, there will be a tendency for the tool to be driven down into the holder

   like a tent peg and some sort of positive means of preventing this would

   be a good idea.

[mgjParticipant @mgj]

Agreed Frank – I thought that, but it seems to be OK on mine. The commercial one has an even more powerful clamp.

[chris stephensParticipant @chrisstephens63393]

Hi Frank,

A positive stop is not really necessary, but agreed, you would think that it were. The gripping power of just a 5 or 6mm Allen screw head is enough to hold the tool bit in place. On the commercial item there should be more than enough grip. There is some merit in having a tool bit that will slip under extreme duress, but as the tool cuts so easily there is more tendency for the tool to cut than to slip. If it should slip there is no harm done, the tool will come out of engagement with the work, you just have to reset to centre height and start again. All it would show is that you were a bit ham fisted in your knob twiddling.

I, at first, thought of a positive stop, not to hold the tool securely but to aid  resetting after sharpening. I quickly dismissed this as impractical because the tool bit gets shorter every-time you sharpen it, rendering the stop useless. What is needed is a gauge to set the cutting tip back on centre height after sharpening. 

 

Going back to an earlier post, although I am a self appointed spokesman for these tools, I did a count up of my QC tool holders this evening, and only one of the 17 had a Tangential in it, make that two the other is a GHT radius turner. The rest is a mixture of assorted tools, both HSS and carbide, plus a DTI and a Knurling tool. I like to have both hands free to work my lathe.

chriStephens 

[ivan kusturaParticipant @ivankustura28369]

G’day to all.

Thanks Chris for welcoming me, greatly apreciated.

Regards.

[Author]

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