Complicated post

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Well I am now curiously looking for a milling machine to complete my workshop, if that is ever possible. Limited room etc. So today I went to see a sick friend who is selling some of his gear from his days of making steam wagons, traction engines & the like. It has been an age since I was last in his workshop.

He is not well enough to take me in there to look at the milling machine he has for sale. So his wife takes me to have a look. I had totally forgot how blooming massive his Beaver mill was . It is totally out of the question for me. So I have been looking over the last couple of weeks at ebay.

Also watched a million video's on you tube. So I have looked at models like Sieg, Chester, Warco. Plus some others, which are all made in China or of Asian origin. They look really lovely & I am drawn towards the Warco super Major & the Chester. Do not shout at me please but did the Brits or Germans etc ever make a milling machine that was of this sort of size but with good quality. The only one I could find anywhere near was a Tom senior. But even they look a little outdated & large for my requirements. Please do not ask me what my requirements are as I really do not know. Only that the beauty's like the Beaver, Bridgeport & many more old boys are way too big for my limited space.

Obviously I do not want to buy a small machine that is only good for milling dinky toys. But I would like one that could machine something without chatter & run out. For instance say a tool holder for the quick change. This would need to be made from a mild steel with a dovetail.

The other thing I ask for anyone in the know is two fold. 1st the upright of the machine, should it be round like a pillar drill or of square section with dovetail & adjustable Gibs. Because I have read that the round type have a tendency to twist giving inaccurate cuts.

2nd, should it have a speed controller as standard or is a geared fixed speed motor ok.

3rd, I know I said 2. But I have heard some say get rid of the stupid R8. Some have R8 & some have MT2 or 3. Even 4 . Which do I look for. ????? Sorry so many questions, but I know there are lots of you members on here that will have milling machines.

So in conclusion I am at your mercy. You tell me what is the best machine I should look for. Do I go down the Chinese route & expect to have to tart it up to standard or is there an option. My friends Beaver mill is priced at £800. Which is amazing for such a machine. I cannot find anything for £800. I was thinking of a max of say £2500 to £3000. Regards

Steve.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

This is not to upset anyone.

[RedsetterParticipant @redsetter]

If you don't know what your own requirements are, it is a little difficult for anyone else to advise you. Do you really need a milling machine at all?

[I.M. OUTAHEREParticipant @i-m-outahere]

My suggestion would be to arm yourself with a tape measure and go out into your workshop and do some measurements of the area you want to place the mill . There is little use in having a mill with (a) amount of X axis travel and (b) X table length if the surrounding area is going to limit its travel to half of its useful range and the same goes for the height . So for my HM46 which has a table length of 730 mm and an X travel of 475mm i need 1505 mm total of space for my machine , 730+475+ (150×2) =1505. The 150×2 is some clearance for the handles on the end of the table and the 1505 mm would be the minimum i could work with.
If you are cramped in the Y axis this will be something to consider before anything else as it is set by the physical dimensions of the base ,Y axis handle and any overhang of the belt drive and cannot be changed without going to a smaller machine .

R8 vs MT – there a pros and cons for both , i went MT just because it is usable on my lathe as well as drill press and i had a heap of MT tooling like reamers and drills for my lathe already .

I generally recommend to buy as big a machine as possible in regards of table dimensions and Z axis height as you would be surprised how quickly it gets gobbled up once you fit a rotary table and a drill chuck !

Nothing wrong with round column mills you just need to be aware that the head can rotate of centre when lifting it which can cause problems but this feature can be useful as you can swing the head around to gain a bit more range in the X axis – the majority of the new machines today are dovetail column .

Nothing wrong with Asian made machines either and most of the time ( especially if you buy from a reputable seller ) you will only need to give it a clean up and adjust the gibs which you will have to do on a used machine anyhow .

Geared head vs belt drive and variable speed :

This may be governed by the size of the machine you can fit in your workshop. Geared head machines are convenient in regards to speed changes but can be limited by the amount of speed ranges available which can to some extent be rectified by fitting a 3ph motor and VFD if the machine is originally an AC machine and the gears can be a little noisy . If i were to buy another smaller mill i would go brushless DC.

[Thor 🇳🇴Participant @thor]

Hi Steve,

Measuring how much room you have for your milling machine is good advice. I would recommend a milling machine with a square section dovetail column. My milling machine has a MT 3 spindle which means I can use the same tooling in both my small lathe and the milling machine, R8 might be a better choice if your lathe doesn't have a MT3 spindle. A gear head machine will have more torque at low RPM's so if you intend to use flycutters or large facemills a gear head might be an advantage. If you go for one with electronic speed control, a brushless DC motor will have more torque at low RPM's than a brushed DC motor. On my new lathe I have a 3 phase motor and VFD and the possibility to change the drive belts to give low speeds and high torque or a more direct drive at high speed. I'm very satisfied with the 3 pjase VFD combination.

Thor

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Have a look at the SIEG SX3 (available from ArcEurotrade in the UK). I've a mate who bought one here locally and pretty impressed with it. It's ideal for model engineering type jobs but also big enough to do motorbike type work such as valve seat insert and port machining etc.  He built a good sized 9 cylinder radial engine on it no problems. Would machine toolposts no problem, in steel. Machine quality seems to be perfectly good for the home workshop. He's had no problems with his. It is belt drive and so very quiet.

I wouldn't mess with a round column mill. The few people I know who have one all complain about the shortfalls of the round column. They are a glorified drill press so are always a compromise. Whereas the SX3 is a "proper" mill only in miniature, with a decent dovetail vertical column that maintains head position as it is moved up and down for tool changes etc.

Edited By Hopper on 06/03/2020 06:29:23

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

It would seem that R8 may be the most popular milling spindle taper as the morse option is being slowly dropped by suppliers. I would only consider a morse taper if it has a self ejector as my mechanical sympathies object to striking a roller bearing spindle and a morse can get very difficult to release if it is tightened too much.

Mike

[Ron LadenParticipant @ronladen17547]

Hopper beat me to it but I was going to say dont forget to add the Sieg SX3 from ArcEurotrade to your list for consideration. Arc are known for their excellent service and support and you dont tend to hear any bad reports about the SX3 it seems to be a good reliable machine with decent capacity.

Now at the risk of getting my head bitten off I would be a bit hesitant at getting a Warco machine, I have nothing against Warco, my lathe is an old Warco but much modified into a very good machine by the previous owner. It may just be me but I say this as it seems in the 18 months I have been a forum member there appears to be quite a number of threads re faults/problems with Warco machines, they seem to come up quite often – too often I think.

It would just make me a bit hesitant but there will probably be a number of replies now saying their Warco machine is the best thing since sliced bread. I hope they do as it would be good to hear some reassuring news but as I say if you go by this forum their press is not too good of late.

Just my two penneth, others may disagree.

[Nick Clarke 3Participant @nickclarke3]

Posted by XD 351 on 06/03/2020 05:31:53:

My suggestion would be to arm yourself with a tape measure and go out into your workshop and do some measurements of the area you want to place the mill . There is little use in having a mill with (a) amount of X axis travel and (b) X table length if the surrounding area is going to limit its travel to half of its useful range and the same goes for the height .

In my small workshop I did this and bought a Sieg SX1L from ArcEuro. This is too small for some things I want to do and I have to take light cuts. BUT it is in my workshop and convenient and I could not fit a larger machine in. I have access to a larger mill at the club workshop, even though this can sometimes delay things, so the very small machine that I can use to full capacity whenever I need to was the right choice for me. It may not be so for anyone else.

[Jim GuthrieParticipant @jimguthrie82658]

One important measurement that I almost forgot was clearance to extract a collet drawbar. I've got a low ceiling in my workshop and it was fortunate that I have just enough room to extract the drawbar from my Centec 2A. It is the reason that I have never got a raising block for the machine.

 

Jim.

Edited By Jim Guthrie on 06/03/2020 10:33:08

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Ron Laden on 06/03/2020 09:08:09:

Hopper beat me to it but I was going to say dont forget to add the Sieg SX3 from ArcEurotrade to your list for consideration. Arc are known for their excellent service and support and you dont tend to hear any bad reports about the SX3 it seems to be a good reliable machine with decent capacity.

Now at the risk of getting my head bitten off I would be a bit hesitant at getting a Warco machine, I have nothing against Warco, my lathe is an old Warco but much modified into a very good machine by the previous owner. It may just be me but I say this as it seems in the 18 months I have been a forum member there appears to be quite a number of threads re faults/problems with Warco machines, they seem to come up quite often – too often I think.

It would just make me a bit hesitant but there will probably be a number of replies now saying their Warco machine is the best thing since sliced bread. I hope they do as it would be good to hear some reassuring news but as I say if you go by this forum their press is not too good of late.

Just my two penneth, others may disagree.

 

 

Not my job to defend Warco or anyone else, but Ron might consider Warco's presence on the Forum could be related to the number of units they've sold across a wide range of different machines rather than fundamental defects. They've been going a long time too. More customers = more comment.

Myford score plenty of negatives too! You might conclude they're starting to wear out. Of course they are, but it doesn't mean Myford are an automatic bad buy because they're all clapped out rubbish! Again, the volume of negative comment is more related to the number sold – a very popular lathe.

It would be nice to know for certain that one of the UK suppliers stood head and shoulders above everyone else in terms of quality. Actually the market doesn't work like that. Generic machines are made down to a price in China and then branded for sale in the west. A number of different makers are involved, producing similar output with more or less attention to detail.

UK sellers don't have complete control over what arrives from China! However, it does seem a certain amount of filtering and negotiation goes on. UK vendors who take the trouble to build a long-term relationship with manufacturers are likely to get better examples, whereas firms buying sight unseen are less well placed. Worst of all, it seems factory seconds and rejects escape into the wild – beware very cheap internet deals from non-specialist sellers.

The main advantage in buying Chinese is the machines are new. Many different models are available to suit different workshops and available off-the-shelf for 20% or less of the cost of an equivalent professional machine. The price asked is affordable, quality isn't top-end. Hobby machines are at best a bit rough but in my experience acceptable. Most important: in the event a dud is delivered it can be returned for a refund or replacement.

As it stands no-one sells new professional quality lathes at hobby prices. It seems impossible to profit from selling well-made new machine tools to hobbyists who demand top-quality but absolutely won't pay for it! Sit down with a spreadsheet and sum how much it would cost to develop and make a decent lathe, say 20% bigger than a Super 7 with some modern thrills like a Brushless Motor and ELS. Then calculate how many would have to be sold to avoid bankruptcy.

As engineers I'm surprised the forum focusses so often on quality in the ordinary sense of having a subjective degree of goodness. In engineering, quality should be specific. A tool meets the necessary quality criteria if it does what's needed for an acceptable price. Forget fancy taper bearings, hand-frosted beds, motors that deliver full power continuously for 30 years and chucks rated to 20,000 rpm. In the absence of a specific need, they are all fripperies. This is why I drive a Corsa rather than a fork-lift truck or a Rolls Royce.

Chinese lathes better than sliced bread? Surely not! But mine does what I want of it.

Dave

 

 

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 06/03/2020 10:38:31

[Roger BParticipant @rogerb61624]

If you want to look at new European Wabeco are an option:

**LINK**

As are TECO:

**LINK**

I have the TECO milling head on my lathe and have had no problems with the round column. The guiding key and keyway appear to be very well made. I have read reports of problems with the control electronics on some Wabeco machines but have no details.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Okay,

So, if you want Western… look at WABECO, followed by OPTIMUM. Both in the bigger size range.

If you are looking at Eastern, you have ruled out SIEG, and you are looking at Chester and Warco to work with. Both are good companies, based in the U.K., offering U.K. based support. All companies come with their own baggage, every machine will come with its own niggle, and every person has their own experience with the supplier they choose.

Generally, looking at your budget, after considering workshop space available, ideally you should consider a mill – square column with dovetails, with R8, belt drive, brushless motor or three phase motor with inverter.

You seem to have very good knowledge of vehicle/bike restorations, and your DIY set-up of 3 phase motor and inverter for your myford looks impressive. This suggests you have a reasonably good electronics background.

However, your knowledge of lathework and milling come across as limited. I say this with respect. We all have our areas of specialisation. Reading your earlier posts, I think perhaps you will be happier with WABECO.

Either way, regardlss of which modern day machine you choose, I would suggest you consider reading back issues of beginners series on lathework and milling from MEW issues 260 onwards, written by Neil Wyatt (lathe) and Jason Ballamy (milling). This was sponsored by ARC. ARC gave the machines and the tools to Neil and Jason, to enable them to write articles on how to use the modern day Chinese machines and tools in general.

This series was commissioned/sponsored by us because earlier books on these subjects are written based on old gold myfords and bridgports. Nothing wrong with that if you have or are intending to buy those machines. The key difference is that they were written by engineers for people who had engineering knowledge or came from an engineering background. As sellers of machines and tools, our findings suggest that most of the current generation we are dealing with has no or limited engineering knowledge, especially on terminology relating to a lathe or a mill, let alone how to use a modern day machine. Many refer to advice on You Tube, which can be good, bad or ugly.

Clarification / For the record / Disclosure: These machines and tools were given 'for free' as payment for Neil and Jasons time to write such articles. I sometimes get questioned about this. My reply: Their time investment on the projects would cost more than the cost of the products which we gave them. I know that many of the old titles were sponsored/commissioned by the machine makers of that time. I do not expect them to work for free. Both Neil and Jason are well known in the modern model engineering community. Both have knowledge and write honestly about their experience, and limitations of the product being used.

So, stop procrastinating, get your measuring tape out and visit EMCO, Warco, Chester and make a decision.

Ketan at ARC.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

BTW.. before anyone says anything, OPTIMUM is more or less Chinese, but with German JV staff staying in China. Bigger machines might be less of of a problem.

Ketan at ARC.

[JourneymanParticipant @journeyman]

Worth noting of course that even the smallest Wabeco the F1200 will set you back around the £4000 mark.

John

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

The late John Stevenson had a Beaver mill. He couldn't get rid of it… even for free to his local club, because of one reason or another.

He was a moderator on here, and you will be able to read many of his posts, if you do a search. I am unsure if you would have got along with him or not. On the one hand he had strong interests in vintage motorbikes, and on the other hand certain people couldn't get on with his writing style/attitude/piss taking of certain motorcycles and lathes. He was very much like marmite.

Ketan at ARC.

[Cornish JackParticipant @cornishjack]

Absolutely amazing!! I don't have 'a dog in this fight' (D-W for the second time) but I cannot recall EVER, in any sphere of commercial activity, a supplier making a reasoned case for competitors in that field!! Ketan has, for years, appeared 'above the parapet' and offered unbiased advice and assistance to forum members and customers (both his and others). There MAY be other, similarly public-spirited commercial endeavours but (in 80 + years) I have yet to come across one!

Were I in Stevie's position, the answer would be simple!

rgds

Bill

[Colin HeseltineParticipant @colinheseltine48622]

Bill,

You beat me to it. I have great respect for Ketan and his honesty and enjoy reading his reasoned posts and as you say that was certainly not biased.

Colin

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Ketan,

Are the people – who like marmite – those who accept the truth (and possibly have rather thicker skins than those that don’t like it)?

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by not done it yet on 06/03/2020 11:35:15:

Ketan,

Are the people – who like marmite – those who accept the truth (and possibly have rather thicker skins than those that don’t like it)?

NDIY,

That is a good question which I couldn't possibly answer. As you know, but newer members of this forum don't, JS worked closely as a sub-contractor for ARC, as well as others, and gave his time freely for the interest and development of this hobby.

Ketan at ARC.

[StueeeeParticipant @stueeee]

As a longtime Bridgeport user about to move up a size to an Ajax, can't make any useful comment about small milling machines. But in your situation i would definitely go for a machine with an R8 spindle. There is an enormous amount of tooling available in this format; and you can get R8 to MT 1,2 and 3 adapters which would allow you to use any of your lathe tooling in your mill.

BTW, that Beaver mill sounds like a bargain for someone, especially if it is the model with the 40 taper spindle.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Steve,

We as ARC have been in this business for nearly 20 years now.

A particular wise trader once told me: 'You do not go out to sell a machine'. When a person has a need to buy a machine, he/she usually knows what they want and come to you to buy.

Over the years we have found a lot of truth in the above. For example, when a person has set their mind on a particular machine or brand – lets say a WABECO, they will never be happy with a purchase of an alternative – in your case – e.g. a SIEG SX3. So what happens next if they buy a SIEG (which you have already ruled out), post purchase, they will always find niggles with which they are not happy, and be filled with regret every time they see the machine.

You have been considering a milling machine for a while now, and this is the second time where Hopper has suggested the SX3 to you. I am grateful for his and others comments about SIEG, but keeping the above in mind, and based on our experience with customers, in my opinion, I think it will be wrong in your particular case, for you to consider an SX3. You should keep going in the direction with which you are happy. After all, this is a hobby = your leisure time – to make you happy, and reading your posts, it isn't as if you are really restricted by any budget.

I do not mean any disrespect by my comments.

Ketan at ARC.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

As Stu pointed out the Beaver is bigger than a Bridgeprot which is perhaps why JS couldn't pass it on – just too much for hobbyists to house.
I don't know about R8 being so common. I almost never see anything R8 on ebay which may be their profiling but that doesn't stop them pushing loads of other things at me so not sure.

I suggest starting by looking at the SX3 and equivalent benchtop non-knee mills from others and measure up to see if it will fit. If not then move down to the nest smaller on the common suppliers website and see if it fits. Only after you have settled on the size is there any point in looking at the spindle and motor options.

[Ron LadenParticipant @ronladen17547]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 06/03/2020 10:33:51:

Posted by Ron Laden on 06/03/2020 09:08:09:

Hopper beat me to it but I was going to say dont forget to add the Sieg SX3 from ArcEurotrade to your list for consideration. Arc are known for their excellent service and support and you dont tend to hear any bad reports about the SX3 it seems to be a good reliable machine with decent capacity.

Now at the risk of getting my head bitten off I would be a bit hesitant at getting a Warco machine, I have nothing against Warco, my lathe is an old Warco but much modified into a very good machine by the previous owner. It may just be me but I say this as it seems in the 18 months I have been a forum member there appears to be quite a number of threads re faults/problems with Warco machines, they seem to come up quite often – too often I think.

It would just make me a bit hesitant but there will probably be a number of replies now saying their Warco machine is the best thing since sliced bread. I hope they do as it would be good to hear some reassuring news but as I say if you go by this forum their press is not too good of late.

Just my two penneth, others may disagree.

Not my job to defend Warco or anyone else, but Ron might consider Warco's presence on the Forum could be related to the number of units they've sold across a wide range of different machines rather than fundamental defects. They've been going a long time too. More customers = more comment.

Myford score plenty of negatives too! You might conclude they're starting to wear out. Of course they are, but it doesn't mean Myford are an automatic bad buy because they're all clapped out rubbish! Again, the volume of negative comment is more related to the number sold – a very popular lathe.

It would be nice to know for certain that one of the UK suppliers stood head and shoulders above everyone else in terms of quality. Actually the market doesn't work like that. Generic machines are made down to a price in China and then branded for sale in the west. A number of different makers are involved, producing similar output with more or less attention to detail.

UK sellers don't have complete control over what arrives from China! However, it does seem a certain amount of filtering and negotiation goes on. UK vendors who take the trouble to build a long-term relationship with manufacturers are likely to get better examples, whereas firms buying sight unseen are less well placed. Worst of all, it seems factory seconds and rejects escape into the wild – beware very cheap internet deals from non-specialist sellers.

The main advantage in buying Chinese is the machines are new. Many different models are available to suit different workshops and available off-the-shelf for 20% or less of the cost of an equivalent professional machine. The price asked is affordable, quality isn't top-end. Hobby machines are at best a bit rough but in my experience acceptable. Most important: in the event a dud is delivered it can be returned for a refund or replacement.

As it stands no-one sells new professional quality lathes at hobby prices. It seems impossible to profit from selling well-made new machine tools to hobbyists who demand top-quality but absolutely won't pay for it! Sit down with a spreadsheet and sum how much it would cost to develop and make a decent lathe, say 20% bigger than a Super 7 with some modern thrills like a Brushless Motor and ELS. Then calculate how many would have to be sold to avoid bankruptcy.

As engineers I'm surprised the forum focusses so often on quality in the ordinary sense of having a subjective degree of goodness. In engineering, quality should be specific. A tool meets the necessary quality criteria if it does what's needed for an acceptable price. Forget fancy taper bearings, hand-frosted beds, motors that deliver full power continuously for 30 years and chucks rated to 20,000 rpm. In the absence of a specific need, they are all fripperies. This is why I drive a Corsa rather than a fork-lift truck or a Rolls Royce.

Chinese lathes better than sliced bread? Surely not! But mine does what I want of it.

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 06/03/2020 10:38:31

Dave, I did say that my thoughts are based on the number of threads I have seen here on the forum which at times I have thought too many regardless of the number of machines Warco sell.

It left me having doubts and the feeling that a Warco machine was a bit of pot luck, you are either lucky and get a good one and to be fair they must have more good than bad or you are unlucky and get a bad one. That is just my thoughts though others may not think that way at all. I am going to move up to a larger mill and I did consider a couple of the Warco models but it was what I read at the time that put me off.

Anyway we all pays our money and make our choice I hope Steve gets a machine he is happy with whatever he chooses.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Should perhaps point out that it was not until the beginners series was complete that I found out ARC did not want the items back not that it would have sawyed what I said.

Bit too busy today to join in but was there not a post in the last few days where the owner described his Wabeco as a bag of nails and then there was the other chap who stalled a bridgeport with a facemill so can't be that belts and 3-phase motors are that much better at slow speeds. Just need to use the right feeds and DOC for the machine, tool and job.

[Author]

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