Chinese Electric Cars

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

14kw is not going to go very far if you have a 90kw car battery at 25% to charge and at £5900.00 plus installation not exactly cheap.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Posted by JasonB on 23/08/2017 20:41:00:

Posted by Bob Brown 1 on 23/08/2017 18:34:35:

That then begs the question do we get enough sun light in the UK as solar panels only produce 10 to 25% of their rated output on overcast days or for a typical 4kw set up 400w to 1kw which would take for ever to charge a car. Probably great in sunny places like California but here in the UK ??

On dull days like that you buy in electricity from the grid which will balance out to some extent with the sunny days when you are at work and the solar excess is going into the grid and being credited to your account or stored in the Tesla powerwall ready to be used when needed.

Therein lies the problem, a proper power staton works when the sun isn't shining, and the wind isn't blowing

[SteveIParticipant @stevei]

Posted by Bob Brown 1 on 23/08/2017 21:35:42:

14kw is not going to go very far if you have a 90kw car battery at 25% to charge and at £5900.00 plus installation not exactly cheap.

How far is far enough? 14KWatt would give you about 90Km range on e.g. a nissan leaf.

Steve

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

The local paper has just road tested a Tesla, and is gushing about it.

In a small table at the end the price is quoted. £131K. Not a mass market vehicle at present!

There looks to be a LOT of work to do before the I C E is made redundant.

Howard

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Howard Lewis on 24/08/2017 12:56:53:

In a small table at the end the price is quoted. £131K. Not a mass market vehicle at present!

What were they testing? the latest Model 3 comes in at about £30K which is not bad if you work out the savings in running costs over 3-5 years

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

This thread has included lots of suggestions as to how to power electric vehicles. Some good, some ridiculous, and some in between.

For a more informed view have a look at the TED talk by former Chief Scientific Advisor to the Department of Energy and Climate Change (DECC), Professor Sir David MacKay, who unfortunately died of cancer last year:

**LINK**

Russell

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

I just checked some actual solar panel data from 5/7/2010 to 5/5/2011 which showed a yield of 700Wh per oneKW panel per day. So about 3KWH per day available on average but some July days got 26KWh form a 4KW array. Stay at home in the winter!

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Happened to e-mail a friend today who has panels on their roof, typical 4KW array and they have averaged 4MWh per year in Hampshire since installed so thats 11Kw daily average over the year. Mostly generated during the summer and has been known to drop to 300Wh on a bad winters day.

So 4Mw will put about 11,500m into your Tesla battery which is well over the yearly average milage.

J

Edited By JasonB on 24/08/2017 18:55:29

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

If you really want to see the real outputs month by month and year on year, have a look at the Navitron forum where monthly results from all sorts of locations in the UK (and with details of orientation, etc) are reported.

750kWh is likely the typical expected annual output per kW installed, for the UK. Differences between summer and winter insolation are well documented. Around 8:1 at a guess. You can check the expected solar production for your particular location, orientation, etc using PVGS data which, over the years, has been proven (or adjusted) to be quite reliable.

Clear cool days in springtime is a good time for PV – good insolation but cool panels. There is no secret that PV panels are good. Just look around at the number of commercial enterprises spring up. So cheap now that for larger installations no subsidy is required – so not like fossil fuels which recive, effectively, billions (costs due to clearing up the mess left behind, lost work time and ill health issues connected with burning fossil fuels for energy.

They are currently planning a one GW solar farm in Australia; plans for connecting North African solar power to Europe are in the pipeline; there are proposals to lay a 1GW HVDC from icelandic geothermal generation and 1.4GW from Norwegan hydro generators. Renewables will replace fossils eventually, so the sooner we all get used to it, the better it will be (without all the naysayers groaning on!).

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

There's a Total Lunar Eclipse in July next year. I wonder what effect that will have on the grid?

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

S.O.D., I should think at the most about 5 minutes over any one PV site, probably less as it fades out, and in again.

Ian S C

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

less as it fades out, and in again.

Probably the best part of b****r all. Not much PV geneation at night. Might be some waiting up late or getting up in the middle of the night to see it. Likely complete cloud cover so nobody might bother. Got a weather forecast?

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

The biggest effect is most likely the increase in cups of tea being made by people getting up to watch it.

In comparison of situations all effects have to be taken into consideration. I did hear it reported that there was more CO2 generated by 4 blokes cycling to work than the same 4 sharing a small car for example.

regards Martin

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

I did hear it reported that there was more CO2 generated by 4 blokes cycling to work than the same 4 sharing a small car for example.

Not really relevant. Comparing fossil fuels with human food fuel is flawed. Most (not all, of course) food is derived from plants doing photosynthesis, (CO2 from the atmosphere), not from fossil fuels which have been sequestered under the Earth's crust for up to about a couple hundred million years.

Those 4 blokes will produce CO2 even just travelling by car. So most of our food is from renewable energy (apart from fossil fuel inputs for fertiliser, farm machinery, transport, food refining, etc).

If they used an EV which had been charged with renewable energy Solar, wind, hydro, etc) the figures would be much different than was reported. But still irrelevant.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

I need to point out that the comparison was the amount of CO2 generated and my point was everything need to be taken into consideration when making comparisons. The particular 'sum' was that 4 blokes 'at rest' and a small car engine emitted less CO2 than the 4 blokes on bikes using muscle power alone. Clearly the impact of the different fuel sources, the green impact of the manufacture of the bikes and the car, less congestion ' by one car' leading to a better fuel efficiency on the rest of the vehicles, changes in diet, increased fitness and it's impact on health prvision etc etc needs to be factored in.

So the point I was making was you have to look at every changed behavior and its impact which is why my example was relevent to what I was saying, which was In comparison of situations all effects have to be taken into consideration.

regards Martin

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Ian S C on 25/08/2017 03:39:28:

S.O.D., I should think at the most about 5 minutes over any one PV site, probably less as it fades out, and in again.

Ian S C

Bit longer than that Ian. Depends where you live; have a look at this map for more details.

The total duration of the eclipse is 6 hours 14 minutes. The total eclipse is 1 hour 43 minutes. On the longitude of Swindon UK, maximum eclipse occurs at 21:21:44 BST At this time of year in the UK there is no night – it's twilight, getting less dim as you head north.

What the effect on the grid will be is beyond me. PV output will drop, but it won't be producing much anyway. Will there be a big dip in demand because everyone has gone out to watch the eclipse? In the middle of a big dip, could millions simultaneously boil kettles for a drink whilst watching the totality, suddenly increasing demand?

Power generation is adapted to meet an average load, one that changes relatively slowly over the day with predictable peaks and troughs. A total eclipse might be unusual enough to cause embarrassing load fluctuations. Or not!

Dave

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Am I reading this wrong? We are talking about a LUNAR eclipse, when the moon passes into the earth's shadow. According to t'interweb the output of PV in full moon is 1/345, less than 0.3% of what it produces in full sun, losing it completely during the eclipse will make no sensible difference surely, much the same as the moon going behind a cloud.

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by Martin Kyte on 25/08/2017 09:15:12:I did hear it reported that there was more CO2 generated by 4 blokes cycling to work than the same 4 sharing a small car for example.

That is typical of the misinformation propagated by the media. The actual figures for carbon emmissions from cycling are difficult to quantify as they depend on your food source, your fitness, and how many miles you get out of your bicycle before scrapping it. However various studies have shown cycling one mile produces between 1/13 and 1/80 of the CO2 produced by driving one mile.

There is an interesting comparison of modes of transport in chapter 20 of the book Sustainable Energy – without the hot air.

Russell

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

I got things back to front, I was thinking of a solar eclipse. Ian S C

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Posted by Russell Eberhardt on 25/08/2017 11:11:30:

Posted by Martin Kyte on 25/08/2017 09:15:12:I did hear it reported that there was more CO2 generated by 4 blokes cycling to work than the same 4 sharing a small car for example.

 

That is typical of the misinformation propagated by the media. The actual figures for carbon emmissions from cycling are difficult to quantify as they depend on your food source, your fitness, and how many miles you get out of your bicycle before scrapping it. However various studies have shown cycling one mile produces between 1/13 and 1/80 of the CO2 produced by driving one mile.

There is an interesting comparison of modes of transport in chapter 20 of the book Sustainable Energy – without the hot air.

Russell

'difficult to quantify' exactly my point. The more you reduce the scope of your impact assessment the more likely you are to get odd results.

regards Martin

Volkswagen quote 101g/km

Human output for high rate exorcise is somewhere around 630g/hour

so take 4 blokes riding hard for 15 min at say 20km/hour thats 630g total between them and the car on its own emits 505g to do its 5 km.

My rough figures, no media involved.

Feel free to shout  if I have my sums wrong.

I'm not however saying that people should not use bicycles.

 

Edited By Martin Kyte on 25/08/2017 12:32:49

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Martin Kyte on 25/08/2017 10:01:42:

I need to point out that the comparison was the amount of CO2 generated and my point was everything need to be taken into consideration when making comparisons. The particular 'sum' was that 4 blokes 'at rest' and a small car engine emitted less CO2 than the 4 blokes on bikes using muscle power alone. Clearly the impact of the different fuel sources, the green impact of the manufacture of the bikes and the car, less congestion ' by one car' leading to a better fuel efficiency on the rest of the vehicles, changes in diet, increased fitness and it's impact on health prvision etc etc needs to be factored in.

So the point I was making was you have to look at every changed behavior and its impact which is why my example was relevent to what I was saying, which was In comparison of situations all effects have to be taken into consideration.

regards Martin

It also depends on what they ate.

I've heard it claimed that you switch from a meat-rich diet to vegetarian you can save more CO2 than you produce by running a car.

From a simple ecological perspective, as a general rule calories from available meat are only 10% of those in the feedstock. By this logic using goats to concentrate sparsely spread calories in a semi-desert environment makes good sense but using fertile fields that could be growing a dense vegetable crop for meat raising instead is questionable.

Neil

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/jul/21/giving-up-beef-reduce-carbon-footprint-more-than-cars

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 25/08/2017 13:13:58:

using fertile fields that could be growing a dense vegetable crop for meat raising instead is questionable.

Neil

But what dense veg crop are you going to grow on a Welsh (or equivalent) hillside. My runner beans at 1100ft asl haven't produced a single bean this wet summer. Nothing beats grass and humans can't eat that. (actually anyone know why that is when lots of other green things are edible?)

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 25/08/2017 13:13:58:

It also depends on what they ate.

Of course:

The carbon footprint of cycling a mile:
65g CO2e: powered by bananas
90g CO2e: powered by cereals with milk
200g CO2e: powered by bacon
260g CO2e: powered by cheeseburgers
2800g CO2e: powered by air-freighted asparagus

The above figures include a guestimate of 50g/mile for the manufacture and maintenance of the bicycle, cycle helmet, etc.

On recent findings I wouldn't be too keen to believe VWs figures and anyway they take no account of the carbon emissions due to manufacturing and servicing the car and all the road infrastructure that goes with it. Remember also that the majority of car journeys take place with just the driver.

Russell

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

The CO2 emmission by the 4 blokes remains the same. Including the Carbon footprint of the food shows what happens when you expand the scope of the analysis which has been my point all along. What starts out as a good idea when viewed on the local scale can change drastically when you take a global perspective. Green deisel and palm oil started off looking like a very attractive idea until you started to realize what effect it was having on other behaviours.

The 101g/km came from a list of many makes of car VW just happened to be at the top.

regards Martin

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Perhaps the answer is to reduce the need for travelling. Working from home, online shopping, Early retirement to the workshop

Perhaps even the Chinese model of dormitory blocks adjacent to factories

Russell

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