Chinese Electric Cars

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Posted by Ian S C on 21/08/2017 13:33:04:

Up until the earth quake in 2010/11 in Christchurch(NZ) we had what were known as a shuttle bus route around the CBD, this was run with locally built electric bus'ses, they had a Capstone gas turbine for battery charging. I don't recall what happened to them, I think they may have been sold.

Ian S C

I suspect I had some involvement in this, bizarrely. Back then I worked for a company near Cambridge that made the drive system. One of the directors was a Kiwi and as a result of a domestic negotiation(!!), he relocated back to NZ with his family. Somehow he wangled to retain his job down there for a couple of years with the result that we ended up "winning" some work there. Which meant that we had to support a complex series hybrid bus program on the other side of the world. I know, you couldn't make this stuff up but it happened. My wife saved me from having to spend weeks out there myself by whelping at strategic moments but it was a completely dumb idea from a business POV.

If we are talking about the same outfit, the NZ bus company was called Designline, based in Ashburton. The buses used Genesis VRLA gel batteries and originally had a (German) Panda Silentpower diesel genset as a range extender to recharge the batteries somewhat when out of town. These were unreliable (heavily modified VW TDi engines with water cooled manifolds that were prone to cracking etc – I still have a couple in the garage). I knew that the gensets had been changed over to Capstone microturbines but I suspect the vehicles would have been at the end of their useful life by 2010. A couple of our guys ended up at Capstone in California and that may well have been how that connection was made.

Funny old world!

Murray

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

But Ashburton is in Devon, Still a long way from Cambridge though.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Our local 'Park&Ride' in Hazel Grove [Stockport] is owned by the Stagecoach 'bus company.

There are several parking spaces reserved for electric vehicles, and these have free [gratis] charging points rated at 16AMP (3.6kW) each.

My 'bus pass gives me free travel; the parking is free; the electricity is free; and there is a Tesla showroom a few miles up the road … So how long would it take to 'break even' ?

Just a thought at bedtime.

MichaelG.

.

https://www.stagecoachbus.com/promos-and-offers/manchester/hazel-grove-park-and-ride

https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/findus/location/store/manchestersouth

 

 

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 22/08/2017 23:08:51

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Just a thought at bedtime.

Without any fine detail, can't tell.

Forever, if you wouldn't otherwise need it and quite quickly if you bought a second hand Leaf and used the free leccy to power your home. Work it out for yourself is my suggestion.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by not done it yet on 23/08/2017 07:03:30:

Just a thought at bedtime.

Without any fine detail, can't tell.

Forever, if you wouldn't otherwise need it and quite quickly if you bought a second hand Leaf and used the free leccy to power your home. Work it out for yourself is my suggestion.

.

Oh dear

The concept was to get a "free" Tesla

Seems reasonable to assume that you were not amused.

MichaelG.

.

P.S talking of detail; I presume that "power your home" should read "power you home"

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

P.S talking of detail; I presume that "power your home" should read "power you home"

Not necessarily – something pubilshed recently by, IIRC, National Grid was suggesting that the batteries of electric cars connected to the grid could be used to supply the grid at periods of high demand & then recharged (as the owner was expecting when they connected it in the first place) when there was excess generation capacity.

NDIYs suggestion of charging your car FOC at a public charging point & connecting the fully charged car to your house to provide power for the house was, I suspect, rather tongue-in-cheek.

Nigel B

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

On thing that is certainly going to change, any discounts or rebates on EVs will disappear and the cost to charge an EV will increase as there would be huge loss of revenue from fossil fuels after all we are paying the government 65% + of the cost of every litre we use.

[Tim ChambersParticipant @timchambers76147]

I suspect that they will bring in road charges based on ANPR cameras to collect tax revenue in future.

I can't see why they don't incorporate RFID into the charging socket to automatically charge for the charge iyswim.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Nigel B on 23/08/2017 08:58:32:

P.S talking of detail; I presume that "power your home" should read "power you home"

Not necessarily – something pubilshed recently by, IIRC, National Grid was suggesting that the batteries of electric cars connected to the grid could be used to supply the grid at periods of high demand & then recharged (as the owner was expecting when they connected it in the first place) when there was excess generation capacity.

NDIYs suggestion of charging your car FOC at a public charging point & connecting the fully charged car to your house to provide power for the house was, I suspect, rather tongue-in-cheek.

Nigel B

.

Fair comment, Nigel

… I must admit I hadn't credited NDIY with a sense of humour.

MichaelG.

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Posted by Nigel B on 23/08/2017 08:58:32:

….something published recently by, IIRC, National Grid was suggesting that the batteries of electric cars connected to the grid could be used to supply the grid at periods of high demand & then recharged (as the owner was expecting when they connected it in the first place) when there was excess generation capacity.

This has been understood for quite some time. Not only could they be used to provide load levelling to the local grid, they could also improve the power quality (PQ) of the supply by filling in missing lumps on the waveform and improving the power factor. Wavedriver had a patent on this many years ago.

This potential for PQ improvement and load levelling may have been one of the USPs that lead Powergen to acquire Wavedriver back in the late 90s. One risk that arises from a small company being bought out by a large one is that it just takes a new thruster at the top to hold a strategic review and you are buggered. Sure enough, after such a change the Powergen main board realised that they were not actually a national utility after all – but were in fact a major global entity. Naturally this required any silly distractions to be cleared off the table and so we got shut down, along with several other emerging companies.

Regardless of the significant prior investment and serious interest from potential buyers, Powergen found it easier to draw a line under it all than to sell it off, despite their publicly professed to sell it on. It seemed that their corporate lawyers were more interested in eliminating any risk to themselves than to maximise the potential for continuity. In the end I guess we had been little more than green corporate window dressing.

One rather amusing result of the putative globalisation of Powergen was the registration of an Italian division, complete with the domain name powergenitalia.com (I kid you not). Very Freudian!

I suspect the market was not ready for mainstream adoption of EVs back then although there were enough interested parties to have been able to continue what we were doing (we had LOIs for PO vans, urban buses etc). Good to see something finally starting to happen in the end though.

Murray

[roy entwistleParticipant @royentwistle24699]

How is anyone going to connect a battery ( DC ) to the National Grid ( AC ) ?

Roy

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Same way people with solar power sell it back to the grid via an inverter. that is how they also run their AC appliances from the DC output of the panels.

Edited By JasonB on 23/08/2017 13:39:57

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Posted by roy entwistle on 23/08/2017 13:27:26:

How is anyone going to connect a battery ( DC ) to the National Grid ( AC ) ?

Roy

by secretly putting a changeover switch on the input to your solar inverter. It won't object to the super powerful moonlight you seem to have over your house every night.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

How is anyone going to connect a battery ( DC ) to the National Grid ( AC ) ?

Not exactly the same way as PV is connected to the grid, as has been done for years, but by similar new technological solutions. In a similar fashion, but again not the same, as the way they convert the inter-continental DC power transmission lines to grids each side of the Channel, North Sea, etc, and even between countries with land borders.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

"How is anyone going to connect a battery ( DC ) to the National Grid ( AC ) ?"

The same way as you connect DC photovoltaic panels, via an inverter.

regards Martin

[Matthew ReedParticipant @matthewreed92137]

I'm a big fan of EVs: it's in the blood as I come from a long line of milkman!

Responding to earlier comments… The limit on speed of traditional milk float was not because of flat battery fears: the gearing to get efficiency also meant that the (relatively crude) motors were a bit fast running. If you went too fast you 'dropped' a commutator segment which didn't go down well back at the depot. Our floats could always do top speed (around 20, I think) when on the way home empty, with the 'plunger in' (a series/parallel switch joining the two battery banks), but there was always a risk of damage going down hill too fast (brakes were a bit on/off when empty too).

[Matthew ReedParticipant @matthewreed92137]

And another thought.

We had a major power cut this week over a big area. Dorset is hardly remote, but is 'the end of the line' for the national grid, and such cuts are not unusual. What would happen to my trusty Tesla ( or a recycled milk float, which is more likely)?

Still an EV fan, and will be moving that way as sooner as we can do it reliably- and that is pretty close. (Need something big enough to get an electric piano in though).

[steamdaveParticipant @steamdave]

Posted by Matthew Reed on 23/08/2017 14:09:11:

And another thought.

We had a major power cut this week over a big area. Dorset is hardly remote, but is 'the end of the line' for the national grid, and such cuts are not unusual. What would happen to my trusty Tesla ( or a recycled milk float, which is more likely)?

Still an EV fan, and will be moving that way as sooner as we can do it reliably- and that is pretty close. (Need something big enough to get an electric piano in though).

You hope it's not night time and use your solar PV panels. Or connect your hamster's wheel to a charger/inverter.

Dave
The Emerald Isle

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Matthew Reed on 23/08/2017 14:09:11:

And another thought.

… What would happen to my trusty Tesla ( or a recycled milk float, which is more likely)?

.

It seems that Elon Musk might have that little problem covered,too:

**LINK**

https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/powerwall

**LINK**

https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/gigafactory

MichaelG.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Matthew Reed on 23/08/2017 14:09:11:

And another thought.

We had a major power cut this week over a big area. Dorset is hardly remote, but is 'the end of the line' for the national grid, and such cuts are not unusual. What would happen to my trusty Tesla ( or a recycled milk float, which is more likely)?

Still an EV fan, and will be moving that way as sooner as we can do it reliably- and that is pretty close. (Need something big enough to get an electric piano in though).

You use the power stored in the car to run the house rather than sit in the dark. Telsa also do household energy stores which use Solar to charge during the day and you use it at night to power home or top up the car.

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

That then begs the question do we get enough sun light in the UK as solar panels only produce 10 to 25% of their rated output on overcast days or for a typical 4kw set up 400w to 1kw which would take for ever to charge a car. Probably great in sunny places like California but here in the UK ??

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Bob Brown 1 on 23/08/2017 18:34:35:

That then begs the question do we get enough sun light in the UK as solar panels only produce 10 to 25% of their rated output on overcast days or for a typical 4kw set up 400w to 1kw which would take for ever to charge a car. Probably great in sunny places like California but here in the UK ??

Solar Panels could be located in the Sahara and the electricity brought in with HVDC lines. Certainly a technical challenge but importing energy from hot countries is hardly new.

Dave

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Bob Brown 1 on 23/08/2017 18:34:35:

That then begs the question do we get enough sun light in the UK as solar panels only produce 10 to 25% of their rated output on overcast days or for a typical 4kw set up 400w to 1kw which would take for ever to charge a car. Probably great in sunny places like California but here in the UK ??

On dull days like that you buy in electricity from the grid which will balance out to some extent with the sunny days when you are at work and the solar excess is going into the grid and being credited to your account or stored in the Tesla powerwall ready to be used when needed.

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

Posted by JasonB on 23/08/2017 20:41:00:

Posted by Bob Brown 1 on 23/08/2017 18:34:35:

On dull days like that you buy in electricity from the grid which will balance out to some extent with the sunny days when you are at work and the solar excess is going into the grid and being credited to your account or stored in the Tesla powerwall ready to be used when needed.

Not going to be that good in the UK with less than 2000 hrs of sunshine/year great for sunnier areas but for the UK??

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Bob,

The Powerwall is basically a 14kWh back-up battery, which you charge by whatever means best suits your location.

Have a look at the link I provided earler.

MichaelG.

[Author]

Posts