Chinese Electric Cars

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

 

I doubt the theory of renting autonomous vehicles working any better than the idea of just using taxis now.

 

It is not so much a theory as actual practice already. One can rent electric scooters in Berlin (I think). OK, not autonomous, but simply located using a phone app. Over 200 dotted around the city, I think, and likely more to come. Your credentials are easily checked out before one can even order a vehicle.

 

Too many lame excuses being advanced for what may/will be available in the future. Progress is going on under your noses but few seem to be searching out the possibilities before condemning them as impossible!

 

Edited to correct: Only 150 scooters but another couple hundred to come.

Check out "emmy scooters" on 'goggle' or watch the appropriate "Fully Charged" u-toob video.

 

 

Edited By not done it yet on 08/07/2017 17:28:54

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Throw into all this that France wants to get rid of all I/C and C/i vehicles by 2040. But what about through traffic? It looks as if Belgium and Holland will be the routes after that.

Hydrogen fuelled cars is one way forward but at cost. HGV's raise another conundrum entirely and I think that a return to Goods Trains is imminent within the next 10 years or so.

Pollution, saying now Cruise ships are polluters but with HGV's clogging the roads is it a contest to see who does it worst and where it matters?

Clive

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Until very recently I considered electric cars a joke, but now I'm not so sure. Before I retired I had a 90 mile each way commute to work, over mainly rural roads, but that must be exceptional. The vast majority of my trips now are much less than 100 miles, and current technology is managing that. For the very few really long trips I could plan it out to get a recharge, or even hire a petrol car.

Average car mileage is 7900 per year. That's 21 miles per day. That can't be difficult with an electric car.

as for HGVs on the motorway, how about diesel electric transmission, and catenary over the left hand lane, trolley trucks! You could monitor the angle of the trolley pole to the truck and keep it in lane.

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

I most certainly have done my research and my statement is NOT sweeping. All I am saying is that the technology available as of now, is no good for cars if you want to travel long distances or HGVs. That IS correct. The number of recharging points is pitiably few and if you think you can charge up when you need to, then you are in for a very BIG disappointment.

Ah fuel cells you say. The technology is not yet available to put these into mass production. Otherwise they would be on the road now! It also depends on which type of fuel cell you are talking about. Hydrogen / oxygen types are simply disasters waiting to happen. The explosion risk is too great for general use and again NO infrastructure to support it.

Other types of fuel cell show promise but they need a considerable amount of development work to be suitable for general use. I am a physicist who has had a hand in battery technology and fuel cell development and It will take a good few years before either technology is at a point when it will take over. As take over it will. Right now, electric cars are little more than a joke and it needs some serious battery technology gains to make them work as a practical proposition, unless you are a short distance commuter.

I often used to drive up to Oban and that is a 500 mile drive, the only "electric car" that will get me there is a hybrid, so petrol still rules for me. Hybrid cars have the same pollution problems as normal IC cars but simply a little less of it.

People are taken in by the hype, as a practical proposition electric cars are NOT there yet and will not be, until the correct infrastructures are put into place. I don't see much sign of that happening and who will be paying for this not inconsiderable sum?

Andrew.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

While working in Germany I saw quit a few Teslas and workplace charging points. At the Mini plant in Oxford there are charging points in the employee car park but BMW do make the i3 and i8. I would have thought a 500mile trip would include 1 or 2 stops unless you are vying for an iron butt award. Of course there is still some way to go with the charging point network but it is growing by the day. I would guess that an electric car would suit most people most of the time.

Mike

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

May be missing a trick about oil vs electric which is the assumption that the price of oil will stay low. As oil is a finite resource there will be a point at which demand outstrips supply and prices will rise inexorably. £10 a litre, £100 a litre, you name it.

It's always dangerous to predict the future, but my guess is that very large numbers of private motorists already have transport needs that could be met by today's EVs. With every year EVs become more competitive so demand for them will increase. Eventually the number of people moving to electric will start to put fuel stations out of business whilst undermining the economies of scale currently enjoyed by IC vehicles. The relative cost of owning a pure IC vehicle will rise, gently at first, but – perhaps quite soon – to a level that the average Joe can't afford.

The affordability of an IC car is quite delicately balanced and – compared with an electric car – the engine and drive train are complicated and expensive. The future for IC is bleak if fuel becomes expensive as well, It's entirely possible that transport provision will shift radically over the next 20 years. Not because we like it or not but because the world changes regardless.

Dave

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

Posted by Muzzer on 08/07/2017 11:46:02:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 08/07/2017 11:20:58:

As pointed out above, the real need is for easily swappable and interchangeable battery packs. This will need legislation as manufacturers will want you to use only their own packs.

Ultimately the well-off will swap out their packs regularly and 'part worn' or 'refurbished' packs with reduced but still viable capacity will mean that even those who can't afford new will be able to use electric cars.

Don't think so Neil. Doesn't generally work and you would have fun running that one past any of the OEMs. The only cassette concept I can recall was the ill-fated Modec.

Google the Renault Fluence. It wasn't a success.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

 

 

Andrew, let me quote you: It will also be useless for HGVs and the like, even when the breakthrough occurs!

 

You really do need to do some research on the topic.

 

Or do you think that electrically driven goods and heavy goods vehicles will never be a reality? Check out the links below. They do not appear, to me, to be 'fake news'. Maybe not yet mature developments, but they will be alternatives to dino fuels, if other technology does not overtake them.

 

Do look at the local light goods EVs available, too. 200km claimed range is available now, not in the future. I doubt a hybrid EV would be totally useless for your needs. Not a lot different than a conventional ICE vehicle.

 

There is a goods vehicle fleet of 60 EVs already operating in California.

 

Check out these links and you might see that your sweeping statement above was just a little bit more than off the mark!

 

https://nikolamotor.com/one

 

 

There are plenty of others, if you are not convinced. If not readily available now, the WILL be in the future. Search them out. They are there.

 

Edit:  Sorry all the punctuation has disappeared from my keyed in text!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited By not done it yet on 08/07/2017 19:45:06

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Lidl have a 450hp lorry operating in Germany.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Dave makes a very good point.

A very significant proportion of drivers current needs could be met by an electrical vehicle.

I don't think anyone is suggesting the tipping point is imminent, but all major manufacturers have 'woken up and smelled the coffee' and the technology is advancing before our eyes. I'm only 55 but I have seen enormous changes in technology, from colour TV to smartphones. I expect to see a couple more before I am out and I expect finding myself driving an electric car to be one of those.

Neil

"Runtime error in module emergency stop. Abort, Retry or Eject?"

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Will electric vehicles really reduce global warming?

At present something around 50% of the UK's electricity generation comes from fossil fuels. When you take into account the efficiency of the power stations, the distribution network, the charge/recharge cycle of the batteries, and the efficiency of the electric drive systems in electric cars the CO2 emissions of an electric car are no less than those from a modern diesel engined car.

Unless the UK can push forward with new nuclear power stations to replace coal and gas, I don't see much improvement. Wind and solar must be backed up by reliable power generation for dull still weather.

Russell

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Battery technology does need to improve dramatically.

Friends who have been environmentally conscious for a long time bought a very small all electric car. The range was barely thirty miles. They charged the battery from their PV panels. When there was a problem, in warranty, it was collected and taken away for repair.

Once repaired it was then their problem as to how to take it home. It took a week, stopping off at friends and family to recharge it and drive from Kent back to Norfolk.

Fairly regularly, I drive a 280 mile round trip in a day. This is in a 12 year old petrol car doing 50+ mpg.

An Electric car is not viable: Firstly, the problem is range, then the cost of a new battery electric car(a hybrid is appealing, but costly and still produces gaseous emissions that terrify people) , and is battery life decided on time or mileage? Either way my little petrol surpasses what is currently, or in the near future, available.

Stage coaches used to change horses at regular intervals, as yet the infra structure to support battery electric vehicles for long distance travel is not there.

Think about power density, hydrocarbon fuels are far far superior to battery power, and will be for a long time to come. Given the pace of technology, a century of battery electric vehicles (with their remote source of pollution) has not yet delivered anything that can compete in all respects. And we still use the Lead Acid battery to start our hydrocarbon fuelled vehicles. The only realistic competitor it ever had was the NiFe battery which although more costly, would stand the sort of abuse that Lead Acid could not. Presumably, NiMh and Li Ion are not economically viable alternatives, nor absolutely safe.

With regard to commercial vehicles, the attempts to power buses electrically have never come to anything, Spinning up an electrically powered flywheel, or charging, whilst at stops, has never been implemented successfully, even for urban transport. So what are the chances for long distance coaches?

When I was a child, MANY years ago, the cost of setting up a trolley bus route was £1M/ mile, so is probably vastly in excess of that now. The cost to provide overhead wires for just Motorways and A roads doesn't bear thinking about. (And overtaking would impossible, presumably?) Also, Trolley Buses still carried batteries for emergency use, and in depot movement!

It is all very well for politicians to say what we are going to do in ten years time. But they have almost no idea of what will be involved in making their wish list become substance. AND they change their minds. Not long ago, diesel was THE fuel; now it is the devil's spawn. Maybe we should wonder about which bandwagon they will climb onto next? Harnessing Methane from livestock? Have every vehicle fitted with an anaerobic digester, perhaps? (In WW2, vehicles ran towing their own producer gas equipment, so don't say "Chickens**t. A few farms run on it!)

Hydrocarbon fuels may be finite, and polluting, but we have yet to find an alternative that is better in many respects. Other than Nuclear, Hydro or Photo Voltaic for CENTRALISED power generation, there is little else, (including Tidal or Wave Power) that is consistent and widespread in "civilised" countries.

Just a few thoughts

Howard.

[Geoff TheasbyParticipant @geofftheasby]

Howard, "With regard to commercial vehicles, the attempts to power buses electrically have never come to anything, Spinning up an electrically powered flywheel, or charging, whilst at stops, has never been implemented successfully, even for urban transport. "

Apart from trolley buses, which were very successful, and still used all over Europe, there are hybrid buses operating NOW here in Sheffield. They set off on battery power, and the smaller-than-normal engine cuts in afterwards. The smaller engine reduces emissions. As for transferring the pollution to power stations, that is so, but it is easier to clean the output of a power station than do it individually at each vehicle.

As for flywheel power, check on Parry People Movers.

Geoff

[Matthew ReedParticipant @matthewreed92137]

An old adage, 'follow the money'!

We would have successful contemporary EVs now if the money had been invested properly 20 years back when it started to become an issue. However, most of the patents and some of the best development labs are owned by… you guessed it… petrol car manufacturers and oil companies (who often own each other anyway). It was not in their commercial interest to invest in these technologies. One of the major American companies claimed to have cracked the fuel cell problems years back, but not in their interests… and even less in their interest to let someone else develop it.

And of course the US military have had mysterious power sources referred to for some time….

This announcement from Volvo (and I understand it is Volvo, and not their parent company in China that drives the tech) is that it brings commitment to the technology to the front of the development queue. The other companies will have to follow with proper development budgets.

My guess is that one of the big manufacturers will 'miraculously' crack the fuel cell problems, and have that on the road within two years. (Because they already have it working).

And… reference changeable batteries, there is an electric light aircraft using swappable batteries being successfully tested at the moment- nearly silent, and with a range longer than most electric cars.

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

Posted by Andrew Tinsley on 08/07/2017 12:35:00:

Note the French will be banning IC cars in 2040 and Volvo will only produce electric or hybrid cars form 2019. So it will happen, but not yet!

That is NOT what Volvo claimed! They aim to develop new models as hybrid or electric from 2019. And they've just replaced their entire model range, so they're probably looking at closer to 2029 before having to make excuses about how they heaven't managed it.

As most manufacturers have fully electric and/or hybrids that you can walk into a showroom and buy, it's difficult to understand how anyone can claim they're not going to work – they are working and have been for years. The compromise is range and recharge time, which isn't good for long distance trips. But many vehicles rarely do those, so tend not to be a problem. Not owning a car and renting one for long trips has long been common for people who live in cities, so it's hard to see that model changing for electric cars.

The upside is that a modern electric drivetrain in a small car like a Leaf easily beats the drivability of a large engine and efficient automatic gearbox that have long been the main reason to buy a large car so equipped.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Howard Lewis on 08/07/2017 20:40:39:

An Electric car is not viable:

Come on Howard, that's as patently wrong as saying internal combustion engines are obsolete.

Neil

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Matthew Reed on 08/07/2017 21:55:55:

And of course the US military have had mysterious power sources referred to for some time….

I note that the 'fastest street legal car' uses lithium cells manufactured for operating military helicopter starters and miniguns.

Neil

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

At the moment I would guess that 90% of goods are transported by HGV, In fact the M2 and M1 and like roads are so congested with HGV's that travelling on them nose to tail is quite dangerous and tiresome.Here in Kent Operation Stack when there is tunnel or boat problems makes one realize how much goods travel by HGV. This will continue for some years I am sure, no matter what Governments decide. The price of carbon fuels is variable as we see every time there is a conflict. Roads will still be congested as public transport is still expensive as they are in private hands and shareholders want there cut of the income. I am not advocating nationalising the railways but a curb on ticket prices. For me rail travel is to costly and a private vehicle gets me door to door.

The infrastructure of car, lorry and rail travel is so interconnected that if you affect one then the load goes on the others. Interesting is the internet buyers who await their purchase without a thought of all the new White van men doing deliveries and the congestion it is causing.

I have always been an advocate of the mono rail, this can run at quite a high density and is quick and is best put up on pillars out of the way of road traffic. It would be popular as it is scenic and a nice way to see the countryside.

With no new power source or cheap non polluting fuel the current methods must still carry on or industry, food distribution and raw materiel delivery would all collapse with dire consequences. Including food etc. How would they keep up the supply to super markets? I think you have to accept certain parameters in the equation to keep the present system running smoothly.

A bit longwinded but trying to put over ones thoughts as they come is difficult. It is all interconnected I am afraid! Clive

[Tim ChambersParticipant @timchambers76147]

Posted by Howard Lewis on 08/07/2017 20:40:39:

An Electric car is not viable: Firstly, the problem is range.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Here is yet another vid. Yes, they needed to refill with leccy more often than they would with a dino burner over the 1500 miles, but not so much of a hassle. Plenty of fast chargers shown. Leave anyone interested to find the 'part2' video (or their numerous other videos). Even electric motorcycle tests.

**LINK**

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

I wish people would not put words in my mouth. Really viable electric cars will take over, of that there is no doubt. All I am saying is that the current crop of cars are not really a replacement for IC. Their range is too short and the infrastructure for recharging is not in place. Same goes for fuel cells.

The current high price of such vehicles goes some way to making the purchase / lifetime running costs not really enough to temp users. Look at the market penetration it is in low single percentage figures.

When enough development is made, electric cars will sweep the board. All I am saying is that time has yet to come, same goes for fuel cell technology.

Andrew.

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Hmm… fuel cells are mentioned. Yes they promise quicker refuelling than battery operation but:

Myth; fuel cells are clean and emit only water. Where does the hydrogen come from? Water and it takes energy to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen. Where does that energy come from? Most of it from burning fossil fuels.

Russell

[Geoff TheasbyParticipant @geofftheasby]

No, no, no! Not Hydrogen! It's expensive to make and store, and the process is inefficient. Fuel cells, yes, but using methanol or similar hydrocarbon. Cheap, easy to contain, low emissions. Not commercially available, not because it has been 'suppressed' by the oil giants, but the i/c engine is entrenched, and well understood.

Geoff

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Posted by Geoff Theasby on 09/07/2017 11:31:34:

No, no, no! Not Hydrogen! It's expensive to make and store, and the process is inefficient. Fuel cells, yes, but using methanol or similar hydrocarbon. Cheap, easy to contain, low emissions. Not commercially available, not because it has been 'suppressed' by the oil giants, but the i/c engine is entrenched, and well understood.

Geoff

But if you use a carbon based fuels in your fuel cell don't you finish up with carbon dioxide as a waste product? Admittedly no NoX or particulates. We'd also have to devote large areas to growing stuff to convert into alcohol rather than growing food

[steamdaveParticipant @steamdave]

Electric goods vehicles were on the UK roads in the 1960s and 70s in quite large numbers: the humble milk float!

Dave
The Emerald Isle

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