Chester or Warco.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Carl Wilson 4 on 21/11/2017 14:21:29:
I can understand why Jason and the other mods on here would want to defend Chester and the rest. Every copy of ME and MEW has a full page advert on the back for them, and they advertise on here too. So, I get it.

Have you looked at the inside back page of MEW recently?

The truth is, the whole hobby is sustained nowadays by people buying imported machines. I suspect mini-lathes outnumber Myfords on the planet by twenty to one. Or more.

I have seen a pile of about twenty mini-lathes sold in one day at a show.

There simply aren't enough second hand machines available to meet that kind of demand. The sheer volume being sold at affordable prices means there will be unsatisfactory machines that get through, the internet means these get a high profile, especially as many of these are bought by beginners meaning some of the problems are caused by inexperience rather than duff machines.

If we are to continue to have a hobby kept going by the supply of inexpensive machines, then we have to accept this and judge sellers by how they deal with a problem when one occurs.

It is interesting to read Edgar T. Westbury levelling all of the criticisms now routinely fired at imported machines at some (un-named) British ones. He points out that the Schlesinger Limits apply to 'high class industrial machine tools' and not 'lathes to be built at a competitive price with no guarantee in respect of accuracy'… 'In the past, many small lathes were manufactured in which accuracy was very dubious, but in view of their low cost their imperfections were tolerated, and they served the purpose for which they were intended quite well.'

As someone who has had to rely on imported machines to get into the hobby for financial reasons, I feel the knee-jerk responses of some smack of elitism and am sure they have put some people off model engineering. Who wants to be left feeling they can only do second-rate work if their lathe is not some British Classic – a proposition that is wholly untrue and unfair.

You know one of my other hobbies is astronomy. A similar situation exists, except that the supply of old second-hand telescopes is very scant. There are some wonderful scopes made at premium prices in Europe but I don't encounter any of the snobbery around far-eastern telescopes. In fact, it's pretty much accepted the £160 scope which is my mainstay for imaging will give you results comparable to anything else out there for less than a grand.

The whole hobby of astronomy (visual and imaging) is flourishing and attracting people at a far greater rate than model engineering. It has a similar demographic (chiefly empty nesters and retired) and requires similar resources and levels of skill to achieve good results. You do it on a budget or spend what you like.

I can't help feeling that one reason why it flourishes is that when beginners turn up, sometimes with a random purchase or present of a telescope, the typical response is that anything is better than nothing, don't be afraid to go for affordable alternatives as patience and skill is what counts most of all. Believe me, I have seen what a rank beginner can achieve with a car's worth of new kit and what an old hand can do with a cheap scope and a second hand DSLR.

It should be the same with our hobby; what matters in not which machine you have, but how you use it. The overwhelming majority of machines sold today knock the cheap machines Westbury was writing about into a cocked hat in terms of accuracy, fit and finish.

When anyone reports an imported machine as having a fault, the knockers appear like sharks smelling blood. When an old machine has a fault its a 'valuable restoration project'.

.

Well that's enough "Neil has run out of s**te" as someone once said…

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

The hobby is sustained by mini lathes and other Chinese or far east made ones. I’m not denigrating them. I’ve owned a Chinese lathe and used it and I have a Taiwan made mill.

What I am trying to get across – and what, quite frankly, I think some are wilfully misunderstanding- is that regardless of cost the items sent out should be fit for purpose. Not rusty, loose, bits missing, full if casting sand – take your pick of the list of faults – the importers need to sort this instead of relying on those salt of the earth me types who never complain but just doff their cap and sort out whatever wrong.

I’m grateful to the Importers and Chinese makers for keeping things going and keeping them affordable. But spending upwards of a grand on something that is unusable and has to have significant remedial work done to make it so? I’m not that grateful.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Carl Wilson 4 on 21/11/2017 17:54:33:
The hobby is sustained by mini lathes and other Chinese or far east made ones. I'm not denigrating them. I've owned a Chinese lathe and used it and I have a Taiwan made mill.

What I am trying to get across – and what, quite frankly, I think some are wilfully misunderstanding- is that regardless of cost the items sent out should be fit for purpose. Not rusty, loose, bits missing, full if casting sand – take your pick of the list of faults – the importers need to sort this instead of relying on those salt of the earth me types who never complain but just doff their cap and sort out whatever wrong.

I'm grateful to the Importers and Chinese makers for keeping things going and keeping them affordable. But spending upwards of a grand on something that is unusable and has to have significant remedial work done to make it so? I'm not that grateful.

That, I agree with as a principle, my contention is that those sorts of faults are now the exception, not the rule, and have been for some years.

The problem is that when someone does experience a significant fault instead of a simple response of 'tell your supplier, they will sort it out', it unleashes a long list of complaints, most of which have been aired many times before. The casual observer notes the number of complaints, not realising the double, treble, quadruple counting…

Yes, problems like this should, ideally, never happen, but I judge any supplier on how they deal with problems as when I buy something I realise perfection isn't always possible so I want good backup.

An excellent example of this is Dyson. Every Dyson product (Great British Engineering at its best) I have ever had has gone wrong, but with their extended warranties and great customer service they will always send you out a replacement part post-haste. (Very relevant as the battery pack on my wife's Li-ion Dyson vacuum seems to have lost 90% of its capacity with two months of warranty to go… at least the clips are better designed these days).

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

the importers need to sort this instead

Exactly not what the importers should sort out at this end of the supply chain. It should be sorted at the supply end. But if the importers cannot sell the more expensive versions of the same product (the buyers simply think another cheaper supplier is a more favourable deal), they may well no longer exist.

The buyers are the ones that choose to buy a crated machine directly from china (but temporarily stored by the iimporter). How much extra would it cost the dealer to check out everything? The customer would be paying far more than the crated machine which is dropped on their doorstep, for sure.

The company I worked for, that insisted on zero substandard parts, paid for that service. They supplied the specification to be adhered to and the chinese tendered for the contract. The quality clauses were a very prominent part of the specification.

The hobby is expensive for good machinery. It is a shame that some of the hobbyists scratch around for the cheapest machine they can find, then complain if it is substandard in some respect. Profit margins may appear good, but that may not be the real case in practice. But it does appear it is a more cost effective route (to replace) than check over every machine in fine detail.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

A new Myford will cost you the thick end of 10k, imagine how good a similar capacity machine from Asia could be for half the money but we choose to spend 10 to 20% of that and complain that some corners are cut a bit to tight. That most of the machines are as good as they are is what I find remarkable. Chester seem to be getting a bit of flack recently, perhaps they have taken their eye of the ball a bit with the hobby machines as they do seem to to be growing their business in other areas. The people who are dissatisfied usually make more noise than those who are satisfied so it is easy to get the picture that there are lots of problems when in reality that is not true.

Mike

[Dan CarterParticipant @dancarter89683]

I may be imagining this, but didn't ArcEuro use to offer a service to strip, clean, check etc their machines at extra cost ? If so, presumably Ketan has a good idea of exactly how many people are willing to pay extra for a guaranteed ok machine, and I am guessing it is not a lot ….

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Ketan said sales actually went up when they stopped offering the service

[Ian Skeldon 2Participant @ianskeldon2]

Just to offer some sort of balance, just over twelve months ago I went to the model engineering show at Stratford, I looked over the offerings from Warco and I was generally ignored, I walked across to Chester and had all my questions answered, I checked over their machines and was happy to order a DB10 Super. Since that time it has performed very well, accuracy is very good. Sure I have re-set the gibs, adjusted a few bits and fitted a larger QCTP, I use a ER32 collet chuck and have achieved very good results.

The machine is not without a concern, please note I said a concern, not a fault or an issue. The concern is that the gears used for screw cutting are not completely concentric on their shaft, I imagine using them for screw cutting could throw up a problem as the gear selector is a rigid arm and idler gear. I have no connection with Chester other than buying the lathe from Chester and being happy with it and I fully understand that some others have bought machines that they are not happy with. I decided to buy Chinese after lots of searching unearthed mainly well worn, noisy, neglegted and over priced used british machinery.

Edited By Ian Skeldon 2 on 21/11/2017 20:32:19

[LimpetParticipant @limpet]

I have a Chester DB8 which I bought about 8 years ago and have been happy with it. My main criticism is that I tried to buy new brushes for the dc motor only to find they are no longer available and the new motor is the best part of £300 that's just the motor no controller. It seems quite a large expense for the sake of two motor brushes.

I think that part of the problem is that the majority of people buying far eastern machines are able to and I suspect like to improve by the very nature of the hobby

By the way I have decided to go the 3 phase and vfd route saving just under £100 – which makes me as guilty as the next person.

[MeunierParticipant @meunier]

Limpet, if you could replace the brushes instead of going vfd/3ph route, I recall reading on here of a company, IIRC somewhere Southampton/Bournemouth way who can make brushes to your requirement. If you have the remains of the brushes you could have them replicated at far less cost than the alternative, should you wish.
I'm sure somebody can come up with the company details.
DaveD

[LimpetParticipant @limpet]

I'll look into that thank you Dave

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 21/11/2017 18:24:14:

An excellent example of this is Dyson. Every Dyson product (Great British Engineering at its best) I have ever had has gone wrong,

I would try henry instead, got to be one of the best purchases I ever made.

Michael W

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Michael-w on 21/11/2017 22:09:50:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 21/11/2017 18:24:14:

An excellent example of this is Dyson. Every Dyson product (Great British Engineering at its best) I have ever had has gone wrong,

I would try henry instead, got to be one of the best purchases I ever made.

Michael W

Henrietta is about 8 years old and has never missed a beat…

This is a house of many hoovers!

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 21/11/2017 22:12:47:

Posted by Michael-w on 21/11/2017 22:09:50:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 21/11/2017 18:24:14:

An excellent example of this is Dyson. Every Dyson product (Great British Engineering at its best) I have ever had has gone wrong,

I would try henry instead, got to be one of the best purchases I ever made.

Michael W

Henrietta is about 8 years old and has never missed a beat…

This is a house of many hoovers!

Vacuum cleaners

[DeanoParticipant @deano]

I don’t think anyone is saying that all imported machines are rubbish. I think that this point is being peddled to save the blushes of a certain supplier. The problems discussed have been described as exception rather than the norm. With some suppliers, undoubtedly. But this thread is about whether to buy Chester or Warco. There are a lot of complaints on this thread and until it was recently locked, on another thread about Chester. The facts seem to indicate that they are selling machines that do not meet basic fitness for use criteria on a regular basis. How else do you explain the quantity of negative comments about them? Let’s stop trying to sugar coat it for whatever reason. Nobody is saying that all imported machines are bad. Lots of people are saying that Chester machines are.

[colin wilkinsonParticipant @colinwilkinson75381]

I have been reading this thread with interest as my next purchase will be a small milling machine. I bought a Chester DB7VS lathe earlier this year as my Haighton Cadet lathe was limiting in it's size. No problems with the Chester lathe so far but more research on milling machines is leaning me to a Sieg SX2P. The main discussion appears to be the quality of Chinese products of which the only one I feel qualified to comment on is motorcycles. I worked on Japanese bikes in the early 60s and would put the current Far East bikes in the same category. I purchased a Chinese copy of the Honda 90, still in the crate for £760 some three years ago. It was assembled, greasing spindles, brake cams, headstock bearings , etc,etc. It ran almost faultlessly until it was sold a few weeks ago, replacing worn out tyres and rear chain, oil changes frequently, a couple of bulbs and that was it. I have heard many motorcyclists deride Chinese bikes, all assuming I was on a Honda!, much as British bike owners talked of " Jap crap" in the 60s. We have to accept a changing world and I have no doubt quality will continue to improve from China over the next few years. Colin

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by David Standing 1 on 21/11/2017 22:30:51:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 21/11/2017 22:12:47:

Posted by Michael-w on 21/11/2017 22:09:50:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 21/11/2017 18:24:14:

An excellent example of this is Dyson. Every Dyson product (Great British Engineering at its best) I have ever had has gone wrong,

I would try henry instead, got to be one of the best purchases I ever made.

Michael W

Henrietta is about 8 years old and has never missed a beat…

This is a house of many hoovers!

Vacuum cleaners

If you say so. I bet you 'use an internet search engine' as well

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 22/11/2017 08:03:09:

Posted by David Standing 1 on 21/11/2017 22:30:51:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 21/11/2017 22:12:47:

Posted by Michael-w on 21/11/2017 22:09:50:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 21/11/2017 18:24:14:

An excellent example of this is Dyson. Every Dyson product (Great British Engineering at its best) I have ever had has gone wrong,

I would try henry instead, got to be one of the best purchases I ever made.

Michael W

Henrietta is about 8 years old and has never missed a beat…

This is a house of many hoovers!

Vacuum cleaners

If you say so. I bet you 'use an internet search engine' as well

**LINK**

[JuddyParticipant @juddy]

regarding a source of carbon brushes from a few posts back, I believe this is the place referred to

**LINK**

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 21/11/2017 17:38:31:…

…

It is interesting to read Edgar T. Westbury levelling all of the criticisms now routinely fired at imported machines at some (un-named) British ones. He points out that the Schlesinger Limits apply to 'high class industrial machine tools' and not 'lathes to be built at a competitive price with no guarantee in respect of accuracy'… 'In the past, many small lathes were manufactured in which accuracy was very dubious, but in view of their low cost their imperfections were tolerated, and they served the purpose for which they were intended quite well.'

I've no idea what British hobby lathes were like when new. But I do remember well what new British motorbikes were like in the late 60s and early 70s – before the industry disappeared over the horizon with its backside on fire. I well remember the circa 1971 Triumph twins that arrived with the cylinder bores machined at an angle to the base gasket surface so they scuffed out the bores within a few thousand miles, sometimes spitting out the gudgeon circlips along the way and wreaking even more havoc. And the 1969 BSA twins that had incurable oil leaks from the cylinder head – due to porous castings. Matchless twins that regularly snapped their crankshafts. Triumph Tridents that usually needed new pistons, rings and valve guides after 15,000 miles. Norton 850 Commandos that commonly spat the countershaft out through the gearbox casing due to a duff bearing and a gearbox designed for a 350cc bike decades earlier. Not to mention the Combat models doing similar to main crankshafts! And earlier the Norton Atlases that all vibrated the guts out of their instruments, cracked thier mudguards and oil tank mounts.

We all thought that stuff was "normal" and quite fit for purpose until the Honda Four came along. The Honda was hundreds of dollars cheaper than the British bikes too.

When are we going to see the Honda Four of lathes?

[Brian GParticipant @briang]

Posted by Hopper on 22/11/2017 09:53:26:

When are we going to see the Honda Four of lathes?

Perhaps the mini-lathe is the Honda Cub of lathes. If so, I wouldn't mind a CD175. Neither is that powerful, and certainly not glamorous, but they get the job done without any fuss.

Brian

[Gordon WParticipant @gordonw]

I bought a Chester DB8 lathe a few years ago, it worked straight off and still does. A few tweaks and adjustments over the years and cheap hyd. oil. Chester were not the best at after sales tho'. I've got Chinese grass cutter, 4×4 tractor, generator, strimmer, cultivator , water pump etc. All work well, all need a bit of attention from time to time.

[DeanoParticipant @deano]

Again, no one is saying Chinese products are all junk. However, a large group of people on this forum are saying that they have been sold junk by Chester. They are saying that they did not get the quality they had come to expect for the price from Chester. The dancing around this fact is rather blatant. Face the facts. Many readers or forum users feel that they did not get what they paid for from one of ME/MEW’s major advertisers, namely Chester. Let’s just embrace this fact and put the consumers of these magazines before the advertisers.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Rockets on 21/11/2017 22:34:13:
I don't think anyone is saying that all imported machines are rubbish. …

No but some comments come close. Quote, with my emboldening: "It's about buying a cheap new far eastern lathe and then every week or so, a bolt breaks or a thread strips or the electrics pack up. Again, it's not that all of them are like that but that too many of them are like that."

I'd be a very unhappy bunny indeed if my imported machines (Warco) were that bad. 'Every week or so' is an exaggeration, and 'too many of them are like that' is subjective.

However, it would be truly wonderful to have more choice. Hobby lathes are far from perfect! Any chance of the critics setting up a British company to design and manufacture (here or abroad) an inexpensive 'quality' hobby lathe that worked to a specification out of the box?

Myford got very close to that ideal in 1947 and it could be done again. My main criticism of the Myford 7 family is that the now old-fashioned design is too expensive to make for what it does. Look at the gear and belt cover. True it oozes 'quality' but it must cost a fortune to make and fit when a tin box would be just as effective. There are lots of other value opportunities for example using a modern prismatic bed would be both functionally better and reduce cost. I guess the reason it hasn't been done is because the business risk is too high: it's not easy to get a new design right first time and – even worse – not many of us support quality by paying for it. Buying second-hand screws British makers just as effectively as foreigners.

Dave

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 22/11/2017 11:39:40

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 22/11/2017 11:33:46:

Posted by Rockets on 21/11/2017 22:34:13:
I don't think anyone is saying that all imported machines are rubbish. …

….

…My main criticism of the Myford 7 family is that the now old-fashioned design is just too expensive to make for what it does. Look at the gear and belt cover. True it oozes 'quality', but it must cost a fortune to make and fit when a tin box would be just as effective.

Actually, it oozes cheapness to manufacture, which is what the ML7 was when it was released in 1947. It sold for about 35 quid, compared with about 45 quid for a Myford (Drummond) M-type which was the pre-war model engineer's favorite.

Much of the ML7 was die cast from cheap-as-chips Mazak, a pot-metal alloy of zinc, aluminium and whatever was swept off the floor. These cheap castings included those belt and gear covers, motor mount and countershaft H-frame assembly, carriage apron, lead screw brackets, change gear quadrant, horrible little cross and top slide dials and a few other bits and pieces. Cheap and not-exactly nasty but close. All these were made of cast iron or steel on pre-war M-types, and were for the most part of larger, sturdier dimensions.

The Myford ML7 was a good exercise in cost-effective production engineering but never really "oozed" quality. It was more the Morris Minor of lathes than the Rolls Royce it is worshiped as by some today. IE, a good serviceable machine for the post-war masses but built down to a price to suit the market.

Even the flat bed was that way because it was cheaper to manufacture than the inverted V type. I don't think Myford had a grinder of any sort back then. It seems the ways were milled flat on top and straight up the sides all in one setting on a commonly available milling machine. V-ways require more complex set ups but are far superior in operation, especially over the long haul where wear is both less and less critical.

One thing the Myford did seem to have over many of today's imported machines is that the Myfords were hand assembled by skilled fitters who took pains to set them up right and get them working within tolerance before they left the factory. There may have been the odd "Friday afternoon" job that slipped through but the pages of ME Letters etc don't reveal any record of "not fit for purpose, return to supplier" as we see fairly regularly today on the forum.

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