CE Mark – real and fake

[Andy CarruthersParticipant @andycarruthers33275]

BSI is a funny one

Euro cylinder door locks are typically sourced from one Chinese manufacturer and branded according to client, some have the BS kitemark and either one star or three stars

We are often asked to re-pin locks to key-alike (two or more locks with the same key) or master key (one key will open a particular zone, but the master key will open all zones)

Whilst the manufacturer will supply a pinning kit including all the tooling necessary to re-pin, as soon as we do so, the lock loses it's BS kitemark. The only way the kitemark can be retained is if we come under the client brand and adhere to their procedures for re-pinning, which is proving incredibly difficult to arrange for a variety of reasons

But the external features of the lock remain the same, there is nothing to distinguish a re-pinned BS kitemark lock

It should be said that re-pinning is a common enough Locksmith function

So if anyone offers you a keyed alike or masterkeyed BS kitemarked lock suite – beware

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Posted by Andy Carruthers on 18/01/2018 11:53:13:

Euro cylinder door locks are typically sourced from one Chinese manufacturer and branded according to client, some have the BS kitemark and either one star or three stars

Andy, I assume from the above, that you work for/as a locksmith.

I've just had a new garage/workshop built and used second hand UPVC door and windows off ebay to save some cash. Lead and prism inserts do bring a bit of class though.

Having seen videos of how easy it is to remove euro doorlocks with a vice grip, any recommendations for a more secure version to fit the same holes/mortice.

Don't worry, I won't hold you responsible if one of the local low lifes does get in.

Thanks

Bill

[HowiParticipant @howi]

I am not a lock smith but can recommend anti snap high security Eurolocks made by CISA.

[Andy CarruthersParticipant @andycarruthers33275]

Hi Bill, I own a Locksmith and Glazing company and occasionally go out on the tools to keep my hand in – the reason I joined this forum is to develop lock picks, I have a couple in-flight

Brizant Ultion locks are 3* anti snap, anti pick, anti drill, probably the highest security locks on the market with a manufacturer backed guarantee of £1,000 if anyone gains entry through the lock into your property. Having said that, I recently went on a course and learnt how to pick them. Expect to pay ~£75 per lock fitted, we buy in bulk at a significant discount – subject to not infringing advertising rules, there are ways to reduce costs, PM if interested

For additional security, fit a couple of sash jammers to the frames on the inside which will prevent low life from getting in even if they breach the lock

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

All they had to do was put something SO European (like the flag) on the logo that there would be no way it could be justified to call it china export.

The charade is rather silly.

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

Posted by Andy Carruthers on 18/01/2018 13:03:28:

For additional security, fit a couple of sash jammers to the frames on the inside which will prevent low life from getting in even if they breach the lock

I'd not heard the term 'Sash Jammers' before so I Googled it. They appear to be simple turnbuckle type things but lockable. Not much use on the final exit door anyway.

To me they are unsightly and look to be a fudge to make up for shortcomings of the window/door hinging and locking arrangements. One could argue that if these were needed say on a new house or a double glazing installation, that the original equipment was supplied but not fit for purpose!

I'm all for having secure premises and am sure these things are another deterrent but why should they be required?

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Ian P on 18/01/2018 14:58:35:

I'm all for having secure premises and am sure these things are another deterrent but why should they be required?

Because anything that can be opened from outside with a mechanical key can be picked.

Of course in the future, you will unlock your door using your phone… as long as it isn't flat.

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 18/01/2018 15:53:33:

Posted by Ian P on 18/01/2018 14:58:35:

I'm all for having secure premises and am sure these things are another deterrent but why should they be required?

Because anything that can be opened from outside with a mechanical key can be picked.

Of course in the future, you will unlock your door using your phone… as long as it isn't flat.

Not many windows have locks needing keys on the outside!

Ian P

[Andy CarruthersParticipant @andycarruthers33275]

Check your home insurance policy

If it says "…make secure…" then you will end up with the cheapest – to the insurance company – job possible. If a PVCu gearbox fails on a front door the locksmith may not be allowed to replace it by the insurance company as they have their own people during daytime hours so sash jammers it is, and despite carrying 40+ gearboxes locksmiths don't cover every eventuality, sometimes a second visit after ordering in parts is required

I wouldn't touch bluetooth locks for the forseeable future, there are warning around explaining how they are vulnerable to attack

Home security is largely about putting as many barriers and obstacles in the way as possible and hope the opportunist burglar chooses somewhere else less defended

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

We are definitely deep into topic creep now but how does 'check home insurance' and 'end up with the cheapest job possible' connect with sash jammers?

Sash jammers fixed to PVC frames dont look as if they would deter any one PVC is prone to flexing and the (probably) small self tapping fixings are not very robust.

Ian P

[Andy CarruthersParticipant @andycarruthers33275]

The gearbox sits behind the handles in a PVCu door and actuates the mechanical strip. Gearboxes have a life of approximately 10 years, if the handles do not sit level on a PVCu or Composite door, it's likely the spindle follower has broken and the gearbox is likely to jam, most often with the door closed

The locksmith arrives and opens the door then calls – via up to 3 other companies – eventually to the insuring company which says "sorry, it's a "make secure" policy, please fit sash jammers. Because there is a chain of companies in between, each one wants to take their cut and if they can deliver service cheaper – or upsell their services – to the home owner, then they will do so

The locksmith *could* fit a replacement gearbox but at his own cost, which would eat up all the earnings from the job

Which is why one should check their home insurance policy to ensure there is proper cover in place – and not "make secure", because the home owner usually ends up with a significant bill on top of their insurance

[Barnaby WildeParticipant @barnabywilde70941]

Posted by Andy Carruthers on 18/01/2018 16:21:51:

Home security is largely about putting as many barriers and obstacles in the way as possible and hope the opportunist burglar chooses somewhere else less defended

Nothing can actually solve 'crime'.

You can only ever hope to move it somewhere else !

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

Michael-w, yes you are on track with that, actually caused by a build up of fluff around the felt seal at the rear of the machine next to the heating elements, but this is caused by not cleaning the filter after every use, which also makes the elements run hotter, as it cuts down the air flow.. I was talking with the engineer when he came to do the remedial work (LOL) to our dryer and as we are both involved in the electrical industry, it was quite enlightening. As anyone who has ever been inside a tumble dryer(NOT LIKE THAT!!) will tell you, they are a classic example of minimalist engineering. It really looks as though every component has been reduced until the whole machine is made from parts that have been cheapened and thinned down to the point of almost blinking out of existence. The rear bearing is a tiny lump of oilite bronze running on a 1/4" shaft, and there are no front bearings, the tub is supported on three PTFE pads which the tub skids round on. The drive from the skeleton motor is via a tiny multivee belt direct from the motor shaft and just wrapped round the outside of the tub, and is tensioned by a sprung pressed metal bracket with a plastic pulley. I remarked that it would be almost impossible to reduce the cost of manufacture any more, to which he replied "The latest ones have no belt tensioner fitted, they have substituted an elastic belt"!

Herbert Punter, The low voltage directive and the safety testing, as in PAT or portable appliance testing was a way of creating a new industry (employment), the cost of which would be born by individuals rather than governments, and the whole PAT testing idea is of very questionable value. there are no statistics to show that there was a problem with portable appliance accidents in the first place, and no figures to show if any difference has been made. Most businesses who have to get testing done have now bought their own tester, and do it themselves. There is no requirement for the "professional" who runs a testing business to have ANY relevant training or experience, other than the two day PAT testing course run at many dubious training establishments who are more interested in profit that safety, and to take an electrical safety directive from Europe is frankly laughable, given their notoriously unsafe wiring standards, and their dodgy unshuttered sockets! Of course, you must also remember that it only applies to Portable appliances in the workplace, not in the home, When I started in the electrical industry in 1967 My first few months was spent on workshop repairs, everything from irons and kettles, through vacuum cleaners, to industrial pumps, fans and local authority equipment, virtually everything was BSI compliant, and marked as such, which meant it had been physically tested by an outside agency. Standards have gone through the floor, as has quality of manufacture. Pity the youngsters who think they are spending their hard earned on the peak of modern technology!

[herbert punterParticipant @herbertpunter99795]

You are confusing PAT testing with third party type testing which is carried out at accredited test houses. The test houses are audited by UKAS at least annually. The UKAS audit includes chucking that the testing engineers are sufficiently qualified and experienced to carry out the required testing. The tests will include (depending on the type of apparatus) heating, electric strength, insulation resistance, creepage distances and clearances, accessibility of live parts, earth bonding, internal wiring and connections,mechanical hazards, user Instructions, servicing instructions, connection to the mains supply, physical stability and more.

Bert

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Phil Whitley on 18/01/2018 18:56:33:.

…

Standards have gone through the floor, as has quality of manufacture. Pity the youngsters who think they are spending their hard earned on the peak of modern technology!

Or pity the old chaps who believe that!

Easily tested Phil. Proceed tomorrow to Argos disguised as a youngster and buy an X-box. Note how much it costs as a percentage of your income and work out what you could have bought for the equivalent in 1967. Now take it apart in your garage and write a list of everything in the machine that's poorly made. Take particular note of anything that doesn't work. (Probably zero.) Next identify all the parts that you cannot make in your workshop; that will be almost all of it. Also, note the many parts that could not have been made anywhere in the world, even an advanced research facility, 20 years ago.

I think what's going on is value engineering. In the past, because materials were poorly understood, it was common for things to be heavily built from the best available materials. Over-engineered and correspondingly expensive, they lasted well. Not value for money though and most of it long since scrap. Modern kit is much more lightly built. It is engineered down to a price, usually very effectively for its intended working life. Of course cheap tat is still being made. Rubbish has always sold to the unwary and it still is. 'Caveat Emptor' said the Romans.

I suggest a new car or a TV set is far more representative of modern industry than cheap electrical parts. Old cars have plenty of character, but they rust, pollute, need lots of maintenance, are heavy, unsafe and low mpg. Modern cars are more refined in every way and they're relatively cheaper too. Morris Marina or Vauxhall Corsa, you tell me which is better?

Dave

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

In respect of electrical standards and supplied equipment, I recently purchased a good quality and relatively expensive air pump, needed for my other hobby of Koi keeping, yes some of use do have interests other than model engineering; the new air pump is manuctured, sorry supplied by a premier British supplier of aquatic equipment, almost certainly made in China, when I unpacked it I found the supply lead was fitted with a continental 2 pin plug, horrible things inherently unsafe. I contacted the British supplier and queried why it was sold in this country with a plug other than the standard 3 pin British requirement, his answer was “ cut it off and put a 3 pin plug on” , I was under the impression that there was legislation that required all electrical equipment sold in the UK was to have a standard 3 pin plug with accessible fuse fitted, the purpose being to prevent Joe public, who may not understand the process involved with fitting the correct plug, from possible electrocution. The suppliers advice of cut it off and fit the correct one was possibly not legal in the circumstances. Problem was solved because the air pump was hard wired to a distribution board dealing with all the “ outside” electrical circuits.

Dave W

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

Posted by Samsaranda on 19/01/2018 14:59:10:

In respect of electrical standards and supplied equipment, I recently purchased a good quality and relatively expensive air pump, needed for my other hobby of Koi keeping, yes some of use do have interests other than model engineering; the new air pump is manuctured, sorry supplied by a premier British supplier of aquatic equipment, almost certainly made in China, when I unpacked it I found the supply lead was fitted with a continental 2 pin plug, horrible things inherently unsafe. I contacted the British supplier and queried why it was sold in this country with a plug other than the standard 3 pin British requirement, his answer was “ cut it off and put a 3 pin plug on” , I was under the impression that there was legislation that required all electrical equipment sold in the UK was to have a standard 3 pin plug with accessible fuse fitted, the purpose being to prevent Joe public, who may not understand the process involved with fitting the correct plug, from possible electrocution. The suppliers advice of cut it off and fit the correct one was possibly not legal in the circumstances. Problem was solved because the air pump was hard wired to a distribution board dealing with all the “ outside” electrical circuits.

Dave W

PS the pump was CE marked for what it was worth.

[herbert punterParticipant @herbertpunter99795]

It’s illegal to sell a cord-connected appliance in the UK without a certified UK plug fitted. Reputable inporters either have certified UK plugs fitted or have certified adapters fitted to the European plug, which must not be removeable without the use of a tool. The dealer is breaking the law by selling an appliance in the UK in this condition. The appliance would have been useable in the rest of Europe, so the CE mark would appear to be valid.

Bert

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

Thanks Bert, I was sure there was some legislation relating to the plugs, not very clever of the manufacturer/supplier saying cut off the plug and fit another one.

Dave W

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

If the CE Mark is meaningless, then what's the alternative? I hope no-one thinks it's the BS Kitemark; they were and are still being counterfeited in exactly the same way. Fuses for example.

Dave

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

Sillyoldduffer. Don't think an Xbox is an essential for life, and they are notorious for disc drive failure! They have a finite life, and are repairable but so what, it is, at the end of the day, a TOY, not at all what I was talking about. My first car , a Hillman, did about the same mpg as my present Mundaneo, it is more reliable in one way, ie, it rarely breaks down, but I could fix the Hillman at the roadside (if it had ever broken down) whereas the Mundaneo will be a tow in and onto a laptop for OBD So are you telling me that the 750 fires did not happen? and that everything manufactured today is higher quality than it used to be? My 50 odd years of practical experience repairing electrical equipment tell me otherwise. The modern £250 plus tumble dryer must cost about £30 to make, if that!

Herbert Punter. UKAS checks qualifications not equipment, and the two day PAT course is of course, UKAS approved, and delivered by City and Guilds training establishments. The people who take the course need have no previous experience in the electrical or engineering field, and trade to the public solely on the knowledge gained in two DAYS training! UKAS is actually, a private company, not a government body. Third party testing and certification is for domestic installations, not attached appliances, and like PAT testing, only actually relevant on the day it is carried out. Unfortunately everyone believes absolutely that electrical equipment is safer today than it was years ago, and unfortunately, this is simply untrue. I have no wish to go into detail here, as we are getting well off topic, suffice to say that I have been advancing this argument for some time, both in the pages of Electrical Review, a magazine whose first editor was none other than Michael Faraday, and with the "Electrical Safety Council" whose head honcho pulls down an astronomical salary, and was formerly "head of business development" at NICEIC If anyone wants to know the details, PM me.

Phil

[herbert punterParticipant @herbertpunter99795]

The CE mark is not meaningless, it signifies a declaration by a responsible individual who is resident within the EU that the apparatus complies with the relevant directives and EU standards. Most CE marked products are not a problem, most of the manufacturers, importers and retailers use the system responsibly because they don’t want to incur any liability for anything going wrong with the product. The problems occur when people import appliances often unaware of their responsibilities until either something goes wrong or Trading Standards become involved. They then go to an independent test house to get the OK on their products only to find, quite often, that they have several containers full of goods that cannot legally be sold in the EU.

The system is not foolproof because the requirements are not enforced until after the fact. Prior third party safety certification is not enforced anywhere in the world AFAIK. The USA has compulsory third party certification for apparatus used in the workplace, but this doesn’t apply to products for the domestic environment.

Bert

[herbert punterParticipant @herbertpunter99795]

Paul Whitley

It is beyond me why you keep harping on about PAT testing, PAT testing is only applicable to apparatus that has already been sold. Third party testing is for products that have yet to go to market. Third party testing is carried out by independent test houses such as Underwriters Laboratories, TUV, KEMA KEUR, VDE, Intertek, NEMKO, BSI, FIMKO, IMQ and many others.

I’m sorry, but there is no way to overcome the dyed in the wool pre-conceived fallacious arguments put forward by some of the posters in this thread so I will take no further part in it.

Bert

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

Yes Herbert, I understand what you mean, but none of the CE marked equipment goes anywhere near those laboratories, it comes from china to market with the stamp already on it, that is why the EU has placed responsibility for safety on the importer, when in reality it should be, and used to be, the responsibility of the manufacturer, or the government to ensure all imports were tested before being allowed to market! If the Chinese have no problem with manufacturing fake MK branded 13a sockets which were so well copied that it was only the printing on the box that gave them away, and the fact that they burn out after a year or so, Fake Mitutoyo branded Calipers, Fake Shure SM58 microphones etc etc, I doubt they will have a problem with moulding a few letters letters into their products, or bothering about getting them tested, far too expensive. I have also seen fake good marked VDE!

The Name is PHIL, BTW

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

Herbert

You are absolutely spot on. Any corded product intended for home or commercial use should be tested by an independent test house. Any individual that declares the kit to be compliant must be an idiot unless he has lots of third party insurance!

The item that I referred to, was sold by a well known German manufacturer and made in the UK by a subsidiary of theirs. They INSISTED that any product made in the UK was certified by an accredited test house. I had to use one in Copenhagen as that test house offered the fastest turn around time.

They also certified the product for sale in the North American market at the same time.

Andrew.

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