Carbide insert tools for lathes.

[Chris DentonParticipant @chrisdenton53037]

I'm thinking of changing from Brazed Carbide tools to the carbide insert tools.

However there seems to be a myriad of different types.

I mainly cut aluminum, stainless 303 and EN1A. It would mainly be used for EN1A.

Any reccomendations?

[Chris DentonParticipant @chrisdenton53037]

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I was recommended to try:

CCMT060204 for steel

CCGT060204 for aluminium and stainless

Neil

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The CCMT inserts will work well on most metals as they are a general purpose cutter. The CCGT are better in Aluminium and other non ferrous materials and can also be used for fine finishing cuts on steel, not tried them on stainless myself.

They also have the advantage of fitting both left & right hand turning tools as well as boring bars so you don't need to keep a big range of tips and the spare two corners can also be used for roughing with a suitable holder.

J

[Oompa LumpaParticipant @oompalumpa34302]

Posted by JasonB on 29/07/2014 20:54:06:

They also have the advantage of fitting both left & right hand turning tools as well as boring bars so you don't need to keep a big range of tips and the spare two corners can also be used for roughing with a suitable holder.

Jason, would you have a link to such toolholders? I have one but I bought it along with other tools secondhand as part of a "deal". I looked for a Glanze brand holder as the quality is good but there are none. I just refuse to scrap tips that still have serviceable cutting edges, goes against the grain.

graham.

[Chris DentonParticipant @chrisdenton53037]

So something like this would be good for mild steel?

 

http://chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/info%5f777123%2ehtml

Edited By Chris Denton on 29/07/2014 21:13:04

[Chris DentonParticipant @chrisdenton53037]

Posted by Oompa Lumpa on 29/07/2014 21:00:55:

Posted by JasonB on 29/07/2014 20:54:06:

They also have the advantage of fitting both left & right hand turning tools as well as boring bars so you don't need to keep a big range of tips and the spare two corners can also be used for roughing with a suitable holder.

Jason, would you have a link to such toolholders? I have one but I bought it along with other tools secondhand as part of a "deal". I looked for a Glanze brand holder as the quality is good but there are none. I just refuse to scrap tips that still have serviceable cutting edges, goes against the grain.

graham.

Ebay item number: 221135126165

[Oompa LumpaParticipant @oompalumpa34302]

Posted by Chris Denton on 29/07/2014 21:24:36:

Posted by Oompa Lumpa on 29/07/2014 21:00:55:

nk to such toolholders? I have one but I bought it along with other tools secondhand as part of a "deal". I looked for a Glanze brand holder as the quality is good but there are none. I just refuse to scrap tips that still have serviceable cutting edges, goes against the grain.

graham.

Ebay item number: 221135126165

Forget the ebay part and go straight to their website. They have some very competitive pricing on inserts, especially the Aluminium and threading inserts. Thanks for hat.

graham.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Chris thats quite a chunky holder, OK if you have a big lathe but may set the tool too high on a smaller one but yes thats teh type of holder/cutter though I do most with just a right hand as that will face and turn without altering its position

Graham I think mine came from Greenwood Tools. You can't get into a corner with them but they take a good cut and saves wasting the two corners.

J

Edited By JasonB on 30/07/2014 07:33:18

[Neil LickfoldParticipant @neillickfold44316]

I recently brought a Kyocera brand holder that take these inserts, TNGG160402R-S PR1125,

the grade and coating is PR1125, it is a 16mm insert , 4 mm thickness, and is a 0.2mm radius (.008 inch aprox) This series of inserts have a corner radius from 0.2mm to 0.8mm .These seem to work well on a variety of materials from ali 2024,7075,6061,2011, to plastics to steels, 4140,4340 is what I have used with it so far.

The tool holder I brought was, MTJNR1216K-16 Right hand, it has a 12mm centreline height, but had to get the underside trimmed down to get the tool height to 9.5mm (3/8) to suite my Dickson holder.

What I like with this is I get 6 edges to use per insert, they are well priced as they are widely used in industry, and this size has the most variations in cutter geometry, and coating technologies.

Neil

[Neil LickfoldParticipant @neillickfold44316]

Not sure how to edit, Some corrections.

My holder I am using for the TNMG tool holder is not a genuine Dickson, but has a thinner bottom flange, Also, the centre height of the tool is actually 8mm, not 9.5mm as posted above. So 4mm was removed off the bottom face of the insert holder.

Neil

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Re the comment about not wishing to waste useable tips, I bought a holder from Greenwood Tools, that holds CCMT0604 tips to use the 100 degree corners.

Used mainly for roughing out, it allows "more cuts per buck", using the two corners that would otherwise be thrown away.

Funny thing is; I seem to have an awful lot of tips waiting to be used in this holder.

Must say a lot about about my abuse of the tooling!

Howard

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

You can make your own tool holder, not a lot of work required. the 16 mm tips on this holder are left overs from the face cutter on the vertical milling machine. Ian S C

[chris stephensParticipant @chrisstephens63393]

Hi Chris,

Quite frankly if you are only machining those metals you would be better off in the long run, and short come to that, to make yourself a tangential/diamond toolholder. I have been using the same bit of 1/4"x 1,5"HSS for the last 4-5 years and still have about just under an inch left, beat that for value. One little mishap can ruin an edge, or snap a tip, with a tangent tool you probably wouldn't damage it at all, in the same circumstances.

Insert tips are mainly for the overly thick wallet brigade, or people who turn something tough or bulk remove stock, or use CNC machines. Sure I have lots of insert tooling but only use it when it is justified.

Now if you are thinking about boring, that is a whole new ball game, where the very precise geometry of tips can work wonders but at a cost.

Call me jaundiced but been there, done that, and got the collection of blunted tips as souvenirs.

another chris

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Further to my earlier post , (How appropriate going off at a tangent on a Carbide Tip thread!)

For anyone wishing to make a Tangential Tool to the "original" design, as shown in the article;

it was in Model Engineers Workshop No. 156, Autumn 2009, starting on page 12.

The most complicated part of making one's own toolholder is that the slot for the toolbit is at angle of 12 degrees across a face which is inclined at 12 degrees to the side of the toolholder shank.

The sharpening jig has the lower face inclined at 20 degrees.

The article shows how to make one for 1/8" toolbits, but there is no reason why things cannot be scaled up to take a larger section toolbit. (My latest version uses 5/16", in a 9/16" wide by 3/4" deep holder – which may then need metal removing from the lower face to enable the toolbit to be raised slightly to touch a centre height gauge. In the 5/16 form, the cutting edge needs to be about 5/16" above the top surface of the toolholder to ensure clearance).

Such tools are available commercially in U.K., although manufactured in Australia.

Howard

[Oompa LumpaParticipant @oompalumpa34302]

Posted by chris stephens on 30/07/2014 15:27:12:

Insert tips are mainly for the overly thick wallet brigade, or people who turn something tough or bulk remove stock, or use CNC machines. Sure I have lots of insert tooling but only use it when it is justified.

another chris

I would take issue with that Chris. For me TCT tooling is almost a necessity. I cannot afford to spend the time setting up HSS tooling every time I need to sharpen it, which is often if, say, I am machining Stainless. The parts I make are either to repair something for a customer or they are as part of something that is for sale. And time is money. I need the repeatability that tipped tooling gives me for most of the jobs I do. Not all and I do use HSS tooling for many jobs – My Taig lathe for instance has almost all HSS tooling but that is set up to do work with a specific type of material, mostly plastics. And I do not (as yet) have any CNC kit.

I saw yesterday that the Diamond tooling from Gloster Tooling was only £20 a tip. You may recoil in shock but I have started a line of product that uses Carbon Fibre. Try cutting that with HSS! And I am exploring a Carbon/Aramid (Kevlar) material which can only be cut with diamond tooling. They do have a place and without some of the modern tips it would be impossible for me to cut some of the stuff, never mind get a decent finish.

No, each has it's place and I would not hesitate to recommend some of the more specialist Non-Ferrous tips for the beginner as the finish is not only superb but, important for me, consistent.

graham.

[TomfileryParticipant @tomfilery]

I don't want to get into a "my preference is better than yours" argument but I use carbide tipped tooling almost exclusively on my Myford S7 and have been very pleased with the results when compared with HSS (which I never persevered with the grinding thereof)! I haven't tried a tangential tool, but have seen pretty good work done with them (in post on this and other fora).

One thing you do have to watch is the quality of the insert. My tools were all cheapies (£7.50 including key and tip) from Chronos (they were Glanze stock being sold off for some reason and are no longer available). Over a period of time, I bought about 8 of them (various handings and configurations). The original tips were brilliant, very hard to wear out – even with stainless steel. I found newer replacements from Chronos (although now much cheaper) are less hard wearing, so I'm trying out similar tips from Axminster and RDG Tools. The Axminster one is looking good, but at £4 per tip is more than twice the price of the Chronos ones – I haven't tried the RDG ones yet, but they were about £2.50 each).

If you do go down the carbide route and find tips don't last, look for alternatives – you don't have to get into the Greenwood tools league, but may have to test a few different suppliers' wares to hit good ones. Many other posters have made similar comments in other threads in the past.

Despite my current issues with the cheap tips, I use my carbide tooling for everything (except parting off, where I have a conventional HSS tool) and shall continue to do so. Don't let others put you off!

Regards Tom

[chris stephensParticipant @chrisstephens63393]

Hi Graham,

You can get excellent repeatability with a tangent tool, well I seem to manage to, as sharpening is by jig. Just replace the cutting tool so it has the same height as before. As for your composite material I think that is covered by "people who turn something tough" and "when its use is justified", don't you? Of course you must use your expensive tips, you have no choice, but the OP was only turning easy to machine metals and I suspect a good finish and accurate sizing cuts are important to him, again a good candidate for a tangent tool. For the average Joe, insert tooling is a solution in need of a problem, when a few minutes being shown how to sharpen would be better solution. There are alternatives to indexable tipped tools and at considerable cost savings too.

I turn mostly stainless if I have a choice, time is money as you say, and I can;t be bothered to waste time to make something only for it to start rusting. I have to say though, don't go getting ulcers worrying about saving every last second, relax and smell the roses, works for me!

ATB

chriStephens

[chris stephensParticipant @chrisstephens63393]

Hi Howard,

Could you perhaps have meant 30 degrees?

chriStephens

PS "original" is really back in late Victorian times but I understand what you mean.

[Neil LickfoldParticipant @neillickfold44316]

Facing to the centre is what damages most tooling cutting edges. So if it does not need a flat face, I drill out the very centre and put a dimple in the face, either with a ball end cutter or just a centre drill start.

Insert tooling is very convenient, and I find time saving. There is a new series of 1.5mm wide parting inserts that are well suited for lower powered lathes,and groove to 20mm deep Ø40mm

The reason I chose the TNMG is for the vast range of available inserts, for cutting plastics , Ali, etc all the way to any exotic material that can be cut. There are also Ceramic inserts , so turning of hard materials becomes a reality, instead of grinding.

I have found that cheap, and cheap holders, actually expensive inserts and holders. The initial price seems good but they often do not last very well or they have a poor geometry or poor insert pocket quality.

I have hss tooling as well, but very rarely use it now. I only make form tools from hss these days and then only if I have too.

Insert threading tools are really great, especially the full thread form inserts.

Neil

[chris stephensParticipant @chrisstephens63393]

Hi Neil,

Ever tried a tangential parting tool?

chriStephens

[Neil LickfoldParticipant @neillickfold44316]

Hi Chris, we used to have tangential threading tools and parting tools. They do work great and are easy to resharpen. What I like about the carbide stuff is I can have the heights on the tools set, and then forget. I have 3 lathes all with dickson type toolposts and all tools will interchange on the centre heights. No need to adjust tools from one machine to the other.

Neil

[Chris DentonParticipant @chrisdenton53037]

Thanks for the advice. I bought a CCMT one and various tips from RDG in the end.

Usually I grind crazed carbide tools to how I want them, but it's not really a favourite job!

[Chris DentonParticipant @chrisdenton53037]

This arrived today and I've had a quick go with it. The CCGT are very good on aluminium, a very smooth polished finish.

Any advice for feeds and speeds on EN1A using CCMT?

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

> Any advice for feeds and speeds on EN1A using CCMT?

Flat out! The insert will be perfectly happy peeling off heat-blued chips. Depth of cut will be determined by your machine.

I've used 1200 rpm, 0.75mm depth of cut and 0.004" feed on 5/8" bar in my lathe, but it was a bit scary compared to what I'm used to.

Neil

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