carbide/ceramic tool inserts

[Robin teslarParticipant @robinteslar]

Hi Myfordians

I daresay this question has already been asked many times before, if so please point me to links. I want to try out using carbide tips for turning but the whole subject is vast (the Kenametal catalog has >750 pages). Ive only ever really used HSS. There are so many different grades and shapes I dont know where to begin. They are not that cheap to make a mistake with.

Can anyone show me the way, its given me a headache

Keep on turning

Robin ML7

[Robin teslarParticipant @robinteslar]

how to chose

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

With a hobby lathe carbide is a suck-it-and-see subject

Carbide standards are normally for big industrial lathes and mass production outputs

What using carbide does teach you is how critical good stiffness is to get the best results, I've only ever used the brazed versions of carbide and was very happy with what it can do, particularly in regard to re-sharpening, I always seemed to be re-sharpening HSS instead of cutting metal

The 10mm shank blue brazed ones have worked best for me

gl

Edited By Ady1 on 03/05/2016 11:06:43

[David ColwillParticipant @davidcolwill19261]

Hi Robin

The best place to start is probably to learn how the inserts are specified. Eg DCMT 07 02 04 which if my memory serves is broken down to DCMT (the shape of the insert [a diamond]) 07 (the length of side of the diamond) 02 (the thickness of the insert) 04 (the tip radius of the insert) this will be followed by other numbers which indicate the chip breaker and the grade. I use DCMT 07 because I happened on some holders but many on this site use CCMT and a whole host of others. Once you have decided on a style of insert then you will need to acquire / make holders. I have used Cutwel in the past and they are willing to do a per box rate but split that box into different grades which is worth while as I do think it is worth having at the very least a grade suitable for steel and one for aluminium and plastics. I'm sure that there will be other suppliers who will offer this. Lastly although you can save a lot of money buying things out of car boots and off ebay I would try and get inserts of known quality and that are readily available.

Hope this helps.

David.

[Robin teslarParticipant @robinteslar]

I came across this link and its describe as "basics"

http://legacy.secotools.com/upload/north_america/usa/kalamazoostep/Turning.pdf

28 pages of elementary stufff and it stewed my brain already

I remember as an apprentice going to Earls Court for a machinery exhibition and being astonished at the sight of these new fangled ceramic tool bits. taking a large 1/4" bit out of a 2 " billet of steel and travelling at a frightening rate of feed and speed. A long blued tail of swarf flew of the machine. The operator then touch the tool tip to show how cool it and the result was a virtual mirror finish

left me gobsmacked and that was 40 years ago

[bodgeParticipant @bodge]

If your going to machine some really hard metal you might need it other wise stick with good old cheap & cheerful HSS M2 Putting heavy cuts on an ml7 will put some wear on the lead screw.

though does seem to be a fair number of people get on with it ok  as Ady says suck it and see , ive never considerd it cost effective but i suppose it all depends on what your doing……..b

Edited By bodge on 03/05/2016 13:02:17

[Robin teslarParticipant @robinteslar]

Well I want to see if I can machine HT steel as used in bolts. HSS wouldnt last 2mins. you cant hacksaw the stuff.

Thanx for the tip Dave, I have been chatting with Cutwell and they seem to think ht steel grade ansi 8.8 or similar is no problem. I dont think they do a tool holder with 8mm shank to suit ml7 but i have one of their 20mm ones which has been step mill down to 8mm so I can use a TPMR bit (triangular). The original tc bit is chipped on all sides, seems to be prevalent. Is this a feature or just inexpert use?

[David ColwillParticipant @davidcolwill19261]

Hi Robin,

You will find traders like Arc and Chronos etc will do holders for DCMT and CCMT down to 8mm. Then you can shop around for deals on the inserts.

David.

[Raymond AndersonParticipant @raymondanderson34407]

Robin, If you go the carbide route then stick to the positive types ie CC**, DC**, VC**, RC**,SC** ,or WC** . The asteriks behind the letters only mean that that you can use either mt or gt .[ the most common, but not the only ones ]. For example,, a very versatile one is CCMT 090304,[ 060204 is a popular small one] with that style of insert you can turn and face without altering the toolpost .

Best stay away from "negative rake " inserts as they are better suited to larger lathes. It is very rare that I ever use HSS now, although lots of folk on here use it a lot. Each to their own. Plenty of info on the web a few hours of reading and you will a whole lot better informed.

Cheers.

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Run your lathe as fast you you possibly can and take a decent cut, so the swarf becomes really hot, ideally red hot or very blue afterwards. It's actually much less stressful on the tool and machine and how they are supposed to be used. The main limitation is going to be the available motor power.

CCMT is very widely available but as mentioned here before, the CCGT (usually ground / polished) are sharper and give a good finish on light machinery. For HT bolts though you may wish to stick to CCMT.

Companies like APT Tools do a reasonable selection with good prices and delivery. There are plenty others….

[Raymond AndersonParticipant @raymondanderson34407]

Also Robin, If you go Carbide, best to stick to the recognized "industry " makes. ie, Sandvik Coromant, Walter, Seco, et all. Again the web is a mine of info. Just don't follow the speeds / feeds for Carbide from industrial makers, as they are usually aimed at high powered, Rigid machines.

[steamdaveParticipant @steamdave]

Robin

For an explanation of insert codes, have a look at
http://www.carbidedepot.com/formulas-insert-d.htm
for the shape, etc. but not which type to use for which material.

Dave
The Emerald Isle

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Jenny at JB Cutting Tools may be able to fix you up with smaller size shank tool holders. They certainly sell a lot of CCMT tips and holders. One of their specials is a holder which you turn over so that it can be used as either a Right Hand tool or as a Left Hand.

Seems to be difficult to get replies to E mails, so try phoning. JB attend almost all the M.E.shows, as well as the Classic Car, Bike and Tractor Shows. If you can get to one of these, you can see close up what you are looking for.

Greenwood Tools also sell a holder which allows you to use the 100 degree corners. I use one for roughing, to use up the tips that I chip elsewhere!.

Howard

[Robin teslarParticipant @robinteslar]

Well thanx guys, the mists are clearing and I can see a way forward. The whole carbide technology is a bit daunting though.

[I.M. OUTAHEREParticipant @i-m-outahere]

Have a look at the Kyocera website it has a pretty good section on carbide inserts ,you can also get the app for apple devices from the app store for Kyocera and Sandvik both are excellent reference tools

Ian

[VicParticipant @vic]

Have a look here:

**LINK**

They specialise in turning tools for hobbyists and if the holder has a 10 or 12mm shank it'll likely work fine in your lathe. Their prices are good as well.

[Sam Longley 1Participant @samlongley1]

So if I have bought a set of  insert tool holders from Warco what inserts do I buy to fit them ?

Apart from a type of tip for a particular material, how do I know what tip will fit the tool holder I have?

Is it a case of -once i buy a holder i always buy the tips from that supplier- because what i have read here just leaves me lost

I am a bit wary of buying more tips from Warco as almost as soon as the cut off tip touched a bit of aluminium it just crumbled & I seem to get better cuts with HSS  & a couple of brazed carbide tools I have than the other tips

Edited By Sam Longley 1 on 03/05/2016 18:47:18

Edited By Sam Longley 1 on 03/05/2016 18:48:21

Edited By Sam Longley 1 on 03/05/2016 18:48:46

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Sam, it really depends on what set you have got and from whom as to whether you are tied in with obscure inserts or industry standard ones.

Post a photo of the Warco set with a rule up against the tips and we could have a stab at what you have. Hopefully standard size/shape but some sets have a few weard inserts particularly the threading and parting tools if you have a set that includes these.

Probably best to start another thread – "Name my inserts" or something similar

 

J

Edited By JasonB on 03/05/2016 18:58:10

[VicParticipant @vic]

Posted by Howard Lewis on 03/05/2016 14:35:03:

One of their specials is a holder which you turn over so that it can be used as either a Right Hand tool or as a Left Hand.

Howard

Yes, I have one of those. Very clever idea but I can't see them on their website so perhaps they've discontinued it?

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Posted by steamdave on 03/05/2016 14:25:57:

Robin

For an explanation of insert codes, have a look at
http://www.carbidedepot.com/formulas-insert-d.htm
for the shape, etc. but not which type to use for which material.

Dave
The Emerald Isle

Just be aware that the Mercans (eg Carbide Depot) use a different numbering system to account for their love of imperial units. The ROW uses metric as you know. Here's an example of a metric catalogue from Kennametal. The naming system is an international standard (ISO 1832?), so there is consistency in the code structure.

[Sam Longley 1Participant @samlongley1]

Posted by JasonB on 03/05/2016 18:53:36:

Sam, it really depends on what set you have got and from whom as to whether you are tied in with obscure inserts or industry standard ones.

Post a photo of the Warco set with a rule up against the tips and we could have a stab at what you have. Hopefully standard size/shape but some sets have a few weard inserts particularly the threading and parting tools if you have a set that includes these.

Probably best to start another thread – "Name my inserts" or something similar

J

Edited By JasonB on 03/05/2016 18:58:10

Thanks for the reply Jason but I was thinking of taking them to the Doncaster exhibition & actually comparing them physically with what is on offer & see if that gets a result.

If that does not work then I will take your advice

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I was a Carbide Sceptic, at least as far as smaller lathes were concerned.

Now I have a CCMT/CCGT tooling from JB Cutting tools and I can take relatively huge, fast cuts with my my lathe to roughing out and get reliable good finish on most materials.

I have also travelled the road to Damascus on parting and found out that speed is good thanks to teh Arc Euro inserted tools.

Neil

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Sam Longley 1 on 04/05/2016 07:14:04:

Posted by JasonB on 03/05/2016 18:53:36:

Sam, it really depends on what set you have got and from whom as to whether you are tied in with obscure inserts or industry standard ones.

Post a photo of the Warco set with a rule up against the tips and we could have a stab at what you have. Hopefully standard size/shape but some sets have a few weard inserts particularly the threading and parting tools if you have a set that includes these.

Probably best to start another thread – "Name my inserts" or something similar

J

Edited By JasonB on 03/05/2016 18:58:10

Thanks for the reply Jason but I was thinking of taking them to the Doncaster exhibition & actually comparing them physically with what is on offer & see if that gets a result.

If that does not work then I will take your advice

Sam, if your Warco set happens to be the same as mine this listing may save you some time.

Cheers,

Dave

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