Can we have a really clear distinction between Silver Soldering and Brazing

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

This one is going to run and run.

Taxonomy is very dependent (maybe that should be totally dependent) on the parameters you use to form similarities and distinctions when grouping stuff in any kind of structured relationship. In order to bring some order to the vast diversity of life early classifiers notably Carl Linnaeus quite reasonably chose easily identifiable characteristics to assemble his groupings with more specific characteristics used to subdifine larger related groups with common attributes. Largely this methodology has stood the test of time although modern genetics has led to a good deal of shuffling around in terms of close relations.

Along side all this has always been common names which by their nature are specific to the 'thing' and sometimes very 'local' in their usage.

Spade is a common name and you need to know what it refers to to make any sense of it, personally operated earthmoving artifact is more descriptive and will universally convey more information but no one would see it as being particularly convenient to use.

In similar ways engineering terms can be common usage or more technically precise. As a classification all forms of 'welding' should really be fusion bonding and all forms of 'soldering' should be thermally induced capilliary bonding by sub melting point filler material (or some such) and then further subclassified in terms of the filler material. So to fully classify this particular subset of jointing we would need a binomial classification.

Practically speaking no-one is going to bother with all this and everyone will carry on with the common name for what they are doing. You can always ask for a description if you don't know what they are talking about.

regards Martin

Edited By Martin Kyte on 22/01/2020 09:33:28

Edited By Martin Kyte on 22/01/2020 09:34:44

Edited By Martin Kyte on 22/01/2020 09:35:00

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 21/01/2020 19:21:50:

The whole argument is built on ignorance of the actual etymology of 'braze/'brazing' which has nothing to do with brass, but comes from an old French word for (wait for it) – soldering, that itself evolved from words relating to exposure to heat. So it's closer to braising steak than brass.

Even more confusing, current French uses "Soudage" for soft soldering, silver soldering, and welding. The French term "brazage" refers to using a brass (laiton) filler.

Russell

[Clive IndiaParticipant @cliveindia]

Posted by Steviegtr on 22/01/2020 01:12:33:

It's amazing how technology has moved on. We are talking about soldering & brazing to stick metal parts together. In the car industry they now stick (bond) car chassis to body components using glue. Stronger than welding. I have a fairly new car that is pretty much glued together. The whole body & chassis are made from alloy. Putting out 575 hp through the wheels & it's glued together. Forgot it has lots of plastic too. Not like my 1st Morris minor traveller. R.I.P.

Nice one. I agree, providing the correct glue is used for the job and the application notes are followed. No good just trying anything – research the most suitable, they did all that with your car!

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

This can of worms has existed for many years and just to add to the confusion there are various definitions. As long as you are clear on what each process requires and what is best suited to a given task then call it what you prefer. My personal preference is silver soldering which I use for the process that uses a silver based filler rod and brazing for a brass based filler, bronze welding is another process but unless you have an oxy fuel torch this will not be an option. Brazing was possible with the old town gas and a blower but I get the impression that a propane only torch is on its limit for brazing. As silver based rods are expensive then if you have enough heat brass brazing is an economical choice for steel but for odd jobs silver soldering may work well. Sticking to the rules is vital to success in silver soldering, if you deviate then trouble is likely but if you adhere then success is likely.

Mike

Edited By Mike Poole on 22/01/2020 09:52:28

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Mike, when I was at secondary school we used a brazing torch that used town gas and an air blower in metalwork classes. I doubt many youngsters today will ever get the experience of them now. We never were given the opportunity to do silver soldering though, maybe because of the cost, and therefore the teacher did any silver soldering that needed to be done on our work.

Regards Nick.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

For info.

**LINK**

https://blog.lucasmilhaupt.com/en-us/about/blog/aws-specifications-and-classifications

MichaelG.

[RRMBKParticipant @rrmbk]

I stand properly corrected by Bill Davies, it is book no 9 . My reference to no 6 is either a typo on my part or more likely my usual problem with FFS ( fat finger syndrome! )

Despite all of that I still recommend it as a worthwhile read.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by Nicholas Farr on 22/01/2020 10:18:43:

Hi Mike, when I was at secondary school we used a brazing torch that used town gas and an air blower in metalwork classes. I doubt many youngsters today will ever get the experience of them now. We never were given the opportunity to do silver soldering though, maybe because of the cost, and therefore the teacher did any silver soldering that needed to be done on our work.

Regards Nick.

We had one in the Metalwork shop at our school too. I was 14 at the time & the teacher let me bring a cut down Velocette pushrod tube & a Villiers 2T inlet manifold in to class & braze them together, so I could fit an Amel monobloc carburettor to my Villiers engine. The teacher was amazed how I could braze. Weird when people ask you things like how do you know how to do that. You cannot answer. Maybe you see things & absorb them.

Steve.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Looks like a few of us were introduced to brazing with town gas and blower, the conversion to natural gas never seemed as good. Working in a factory oxy acetylene was readily available and a good mate was a skilled welder, we made the skilled distinction as in a car factory many people were trained to do specific welding tasks and they were damn good at the specific task but the skilled welder was taught all welding disciplines and could weld any material. They also understood the metallurgy side of the job so they were a very different animal to a production welder. Some of the production guys ran fearsome settings on their machines, everything up to 11.

Mike

[Gerard O’TooleParticipant @gerardotoole60348]

It probably depends on whose word definition you believe

“When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’

’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’

’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.”

― Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass

[Anthony KnightsParticipant @anthonyknights16741]

I cannot believe this subject has run to three pages. Welding involves melting the adjacent parts of the parts to be joined and when they cool they are attached. I am rubbish at welding.

Soldering, be it Tin/ lead alloy, alloy containing silver or brass all join metals by alloying with them at a temperature below the melting point of the metals you are joining together. The only difference between the various processes is the temperature at which this is done and the soldering rod used. Done this with soft solder and silver solder. Not tried brass as I have had no reason to do so.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Anthony Knights on 22/01/2020 17:57:12:

I cannot believe this subject has run to three pages.

.

Possibly because you didn’t read the question [?]

MichaelG.

.

Can we have a really clear distinction between Silver Soldering and Brazing

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 22/01/2020 18:12:29

[BazParticipant @baz89810]

Suppose this has run to four pages because its winter and too cold to go into workshop, everyone sat in armchair with iPad or laptop😊

Can we have a really clear distinction between silver soldering and brazing?

Apparently not.

[Dave WoottonParticipant @davewootton]

Thanks for explaining the difference between brazing and bronze welding Stueee, had a look on Youtube very inspiring. I've used bronze welding a lot on classic British bikes, I'm working on a Norton twin at the moment, seems to resist the vibration better than my welding!

I had an interesting call from a friend who is a great fund of knowledge on matters classic and vintage motorcycle, who had seen the thread. He believes the term bronze welding came around almost as a trade name, and was used to differentiate between the old hearth brazed lugged frames and parts and the more modern ( at the time ) bronze welded frames. an early form of spin?

Dave

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember19781]

[This posting has been removed]

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember19781]

[This posting has been removed]

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 22/01/2020 18:11:32:

Can we have a really clear distinction between Silver Soldering and Brazing

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 22/01/2020 18:12:29

Everyone seems to have their own definition in this area Michael.

Mine is that 'brazing' generally occurs above 450c and 'soldering' below this temperature – the filler material dictating the temperature required to make the joint.

So when using silver 'solder', the process is actually a form of brazing e.g. silver brazing – although I also certainly do use the term 'silver soldering' which is in common use in the UK. However there are clear differences between the physical joints made when soldering and brazing – as made clear in the link I posted way back on Page 1

https://vacaero.com/information-resources/vacuum-brazing-with-dan-kay/1345-brazing-vs-soldering.html

However, I'm sure others here will wish to debate this distinction further- so I look forward to reading further opinions on pages 5,6,7 etc….

Regards,

IanT

PS you're right, it's too cold down my Shed at the moment…

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by IanT on 22/01/2020 20:37:19:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 22/01/2020 18:11:32:

Can we have a really clear distinction between Silver Soldering and Brazing

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 22/01/2020 18:12:29

Everyone seems to have their own definition in this area Michael.

[…]

.

I was merely quoting the title of the thread, Ian 

I’ve already stated that the answer to the question is NO ; and have explained why.

… So I don’t think I will be playing this game any longer.

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 22/01/2020 20:54:10

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember19781]

[This posting has been removed]

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

Four pages now.

As for a really clear distinction, there isn't one. There is no particular difference between the two names, the process is pretty much the same. Its a shame that the word solder was adopted instead of silver brazing. The solder process as far as I'm concerned employs an iron and lead based alloys and the only exception is in plumbing.

The argument could go on for 100 pages and still be no nearer to resolution.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Of course we could call silver soldering and brazing hard soldering. Hard soldering doesn’t seem such a popular term as it used to be.

Mike

[Brian JohnParticipant @brianjohn93961]

I usually call it hard soldering (Australia) and sometimes silver soldering. Brazing always seems to mean many things to different people which is why I do not use it !

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

Simple, Silver soldering is done with silver solder rods, which cost mad money.

Brazing is done using brass rods, which are quite cheap and the joint is stronger, just needs more heat.

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember19781]

[This posting has been removed]

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Dave Wootton on 22/01/2020 20:03:24:

Thanks for explaining the difference between brazing and bronze welding Stueee, had a look on Youtube very inspiring. I've used bronze welding a lot on classic British bikes, I'm working on a Norton twin at the moment, seems to resist the vibration better than my welding!

I had an interesting call from a friend who is a great fund of knowledge on matters classic and vintage motorcycle, who had seen the thread. He believes the term bronze welding came around almost as a trade name, and was used to differentiate between the old hearth brazed lugged frames and parts and the more modern ( at the time ) bronze welded frames. an early form of spin?

Dave

He's thinking of SifBronze – which is actually a pretty standard brass spelter (copper zinc alloy with a touch of silicon).

Much beloved of LBSC who probably had a sponsorship deal with them. Yet it must have been a poor choice for boiler work due to the extra heat and unsuitability for hot water…

Neil

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