Black 5 in 5″ finally has beaten me

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Well for months been trying to sort water problems on my black 5.

I have changed all clack Valves as the new ones where leaking and blowing back into tender.

The injector will not pick up changed the valve at top lowered the feed pipe then fitted new injector made sure got good feed water to injector still not working.

Now just run Loco on Air to check axle pump working got good feed fitted new Clack valve plus all new pipping.

Also when Loco gets up to pressure wheels lock I have now fitted 4 new bypass valves although the Manuel ones seemed to work ok.

I have done every thing I can the ball is free in axle pump took pipe of outlet water was pumping ok.

No ideas left

Ron

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

So many water problems

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Posted by Ron Hancock on 29/08/2016 19:21:45:

fitted feed very low for injector

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Posted by Ron Hancock on 29/08/2016 19:22:17:

fitted another clack valve new just in front of injector as suggested by club

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Posted by Ron Hancock on 29/08/2016 19:23:27:

fitted two new water valves make sure they work ok plus al new piping

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Posted by Ron Hancock on 29/08/2016 19:22:56:

fitted new clack valve to hand pump and one just in front of axle pump with all new pipes made sure the axle pump feed was vertical

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Can you not give it to someone experienced at a local club to sort out Ron?

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

I took it last Wed must admit most where baffled they could not understand why after all the alterations it still did not work.

I think it cannot be much but no idea what to try next.

Have to admit had so many problems that I have solved now loosing interest put everything into it but it has beaten me.

As for asking for help from club members our club is loosing our place at Rugeley so at moment no one interested as feeling very down after being here for 30 years so most feel very depressed as I do with loco

Ron

[nigel jones 5Participant @nigeljones5]

Ron – might just be a poorly made injector. I have not had much luck with them in the past whilst others prefer them over everything else. What do you mean by wheels lock when up to pressure?

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

Hi Ron,

I am sorry to hear of further lack of success.

I can send you an injector that I know works perfectly to try out. If it doesnt work on your loco then something else is still wrong elsewhere.

I can also check out for you the injector you have.

I note you appear to have added an inline check valve on the water inlet pipe to the injector. This is unnecessary, and also might be reducing the flow of water to the injector.

Cheers,

Julian

[Brian HParticipant @brianh50089]

So sorry to hear thar you are thinking of giving up on your Black Five Ron, especially after all the work you have put in.

I'm afraid that I cannot offer any practical, mechanical suggestions but looking to join a different club may refire your enthusiasm.

All the best with it.

[J HancockParticipant @jhancock95746]

Ron, you are everyones hero, and like any hero you deserve a rest before picking up the tools again !

Truly, there is nothing too wrong with that loco if the chassis runs on air and the boiler raises steam.

Now the problem seems to be getting water into the boiler, reliably.

Just a thought, but I think you have introduced too many non-return valves on the routes into the boiler.

Perhaps thinking that at least one will work. Not good.

Check the boiler mounted clack valves all work , on the bench.

Take out any other clacks you have added ( that are not needed).

Just get your confidence back by making sure the hand pump circuit works.

Then then the axle pump / bypass circuits work.

Ask one of the club members to try the injector on one of their locos, it is the only way to find out if it works,

unless you have steam raising kit in your workshop.

Keep the pipework simple and well sized.

Can understand your disappointment Ron after all your effort , very slowly this time, lots of cups of tea

between each item checked . Try it, one step at a time, slowly.

We all want you to succeed Ron.

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Posted by fizzy on 29/08/2016 20:52:11:

Ron – might just be a poorly made injector. I have not had much luck with them in the past whilst others prefer them over everything else. What do you mean by wheels lock when up to pressure?

I have tried two injectors one from Reeves a number 4 then i tried another from another company a number 3 none work.

Had our members look at it a couple weeks ago none could understand why they would not work.

As for wheels not turning when you get pressure up the wheels will no turn as if its seized solid as soon as it cools turns freely also runs nice on Air.

I have fitted new drain valves this week auto ones instead of Manuel but could not see anything wrong with the Manuel ones.

It has completly beat me this time

Ron

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Posted by julian atkins on 29/08/2016 22:28:30:

Hi Ron,

I am sorry to hear of further lack of success.

I can send you an injector that I know works perfectly to try out. If it doesnt work on your loco then something else is still wrong elsewhere.

I can also check out for you the injector you have.

I note you appear to have added an inline check valve on the water inlet pipe to the injector. This is unnecessary, and also might be reducing the flow of water to the injector.

Cheers,

Julian

Hi Julian i have tried two injectors one from Reeves a number 4 and another bought from club member who got it from Doncaster show for me a number 3.

I have taken the Ball out of the clack before the injector when i was at the club as they said the same i have re done all pipe work hoping to solve the problem but seen to be getting nowhere.

I fitted a clack on the pipe after axle pump verticle as suggested at club i did check to make sure the axle pump was pumping ok it was but since fitting the clack it does not work yet arrow pointing in right direction.

As for the injector i lowerd the pipe so it was well below the tender checked its getting a good supply of cold water also took of the steam pipe from fitting to make sure steam was not being fed all the time to injector making it get hot.

I had also put a clack a new one after injector as club suggested but it has made no diffrence.

It has beaten me this time as don't know what to do now

Thanks again Julian

PS i would like to send you one of my injectors if you would try for me put my mind at rest please.

hank.ron@gmail.com

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Posted by Brian Hutchings on 30/08/2016 07:53:53:

So sorry to hear thar you are thinking of giving up on your Black Five Ron, especially after all the work you have put in.

I'm afraid that I cannot offer any practical, mechanical suggestions but looking to join a different club may refire your enthusiasm.

All the best with it.

I might take it to Nottingham club ask if they have any suggestions but not been going as had so many problems to solve feel cheeky just turning up asking for help

Edited By Ron Hancock on 30/08/2016 10:32:43

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Posted by J Hancock on 30/08/2016 09:46:34:

Ron, you are every ones hero, and like any hero you deserve a rest before picking up the tools again !

Truly, there is nothing too wrong with that loco if the chassis runs on air and the boiler raises steam.

Now the problem seems to be getting water into the boiler, reliably.

Just a thought, but I think you have introduced too many non-return valves on the routes into the boiler.

Perhaps thinking that at least one will work. Not good.

Check the boiler mounted clack valves all work , on the bench.

Take out any other clacks you have added ( that are not needed).

Just get your confidence back by making sure the hand pump circuit works.

Then then the axle pump / bypass circuits work.

Ask one of the club members to try the injector on one of their loco, it is the only way to find out if it works,

unless you have steam raising kit in your workshop.

Keep the pipe work simple and well sized.

Can understand your disappointment Ron after all your effort , very slowly this time, lots of cups of tea

between each item checked . Try it, one step at a time, slowly.

We all want you to succeed Ron.

Hi John i have three clacks fitted one from axle pump that feeds into the Hand pump where i have another clack.

the hand pump works fine i had made sure the axle pump worked before fitting the clack valve it does not work now as i tried it running on air.

On the return pipe to tender with new water on off valve found no return when open and no water feed to boiler and yes the arrow is pointing in direction of flow.

I have spent weeks trying to solve the problem first found clacks faulty i changed for new ones then i was told pipe work was not very good so changed all then changed the water feed valves changed injector for another new one,

I have fitted new auto cylinder drain valves as wheels where locking when steam pressure was raised turns freely on air and when cold.

I just don't know where to start now feel i have tried every thing i can think of and also what members at club suggested but no nearer.

totally failed

Ron

[Simon CollierParticipant @simoncollier74340]

Ron, make absolutely certain your injector water valves cannot suck air. There must be glands sealing the spindles, i.e., the handles on the tender. Julian will be your best advisor.

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Posted by Simon Collier 1 on 30/08/2016 10:33:28:

Ron, make absolutely certain your injector water valves cannot suck air. There must be glands sealing the spindles, i.e., the handles on the tender. Julian will be your best advisor.

I have double checked for any air leaks so did my club as that was one of the things they suggested.

Seem all ok it was another reason i changed all the pipe work for new just in case.

I fittied high pressure hose with petril pipe clips as stronger than Jubilee so very tight so no leaks their.

As for Julian he has been amazing with all the help he has given me building the Loco could not have done it without his advice.

I trust his advice 100% but after so much help he must be getting fed up as he has done so much for me.

Ron

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Ron Hancock on 30/08/2016 10:06:57:

As for wheels not turning when you get pressure up the wheels will no turn as if its seized solid as soon as it cools turns freely also runs nice on Air.

Sounds like someting has been made too good a fit and as the boiler is expanding things are getting moved and locking up the engine. Try disconecting the con rods (or whatever the loco term is) and see if its the axles & drivetrain or the cylinders that are getting tight as things warm up.

J

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

I don't know much about steam engines, does your engine have drain cocks on the cylinders? If not are you getting a hydraulic lock in the cylinders, as you say it runs on air.

Ian S C

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

"I have fitted new drain valves this week auto ones instead of Manuel but could not see anything wrong with the Manuel ones."

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