Basic Electrics

[Len Morris 2Participant @lenmorris2]

Hi,

I think a new addition to the forums should be "Basic Electrics"

CNC, electronics, VFD's etc all have a place, but many of us have to deal with old machines. Drum switches, contactors, single phase and three phase, difficult connecters etc.

Regards

Len

[Len Morris 2Participant @lenmorris2]

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

And not so old machines at that, eg the oldest I have is 25 years old. And there is the pistol drill at probably 35 to 40 years old (and which still makes the battery powered things look puny!)

Yes, sometimes, especially as age creeps up, some of us just cannot be bothered with these new-fangled devices, and in any case, these electronic add-ons are sometimes worth more than the machine.

Cheers,

Peter G. Shaw

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

+1 for this, a good idea

Edited By martin perman on 13/07/2020 10:21:59

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Agree with Peter, I remember one of "Desoutter's Little Horses" a tiny very compact pistol drill with enormous power.

[Norman BillinghamParticipant @normanbillingham91454]

I think the drive for battery powered tools comes mainly from site safety considerations – low voltages and no trailing leads. Mains powered is hands down better for serious drilling and sawing – though I wouldn't be without my cordless drill/driver.

[Fowlers FuryParticipant @fowlersfury]

I'd like to better Peter Shaw's claim to fame viz " And there is the pistol drill at probably 35 to 40 years old (and which still makes the battery powered things look puny!) "
I'm now 76 and my parents gave me a Christmas present when I was 11. It was a mains Wolf Cub drill.
(I should add Santa also provided a lambswool polishing bonnet no doubt in response to my mother's letter to him because she used the my drill regularly for polishing the lino).
Altho' it has a 1/4" fairly crude chuck – it is still in regular use after 65 years.
I echo Peter's words – it makes the battery powered things look puny.
To my shame it has only been dismantled once to clean out sawdust and to oil the felt pad. I've also replaced the mains lead – again, once.

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

" I think a new addition to the forums should be "Basic Electrics" "

Go wash your mouth out with Citric Acid. At the time when DIY was a necessity rather than a " Hobby " some of us lone hands ( frugal Yorkshireman ) were complimented by those who knew, on the professionalism exhibited on various "DIY" jobs. Sadly with the advent of the various big box suppliers serving the great unwashed with equipment and parts they had no experience of correct usage but wanted "to have a go", plumbing and electrikery has been designated to the black arts which need numerous pieces of paper to state qualifications to replace a d**n great lump of material rather than a simple piece.

BEWARE THE INSURANCE COMPANY cos since Lynn Falls Wood got her fingers in the mix there are six possibilities of wiring a 13amp plug incorrectly for many. (Used to teach us this at school), needs a sparky and a certificate of conformity now.

Regards Ian.

[Grindstone CowboyParticipant @grindstonecowboy]

Posted by Circlip on 13/07/2020 11:57:20:

BEWARE THE INSURANCE COMPANY cos since Lynn Falls Wood got her fingers in the mix there are six possibilities of wiring a 13amp plug incorrectly for many. (Used to teach us this at school), needs a sparky and a certificate of conformity now.

Regards Ian.

When our family moved abroad, I was given the task of swapping all of the square pin 13 amp plugs on our equipment to the local 15 amp round pin plugs. I had just turned eight at the time.

Had to do it all in reverse when we moved back six years later.

Rob

[Harry WilkesParticipant @harrywilkes58467]

Not wishing to put a damp squid on the suggestion of a section for "basic electrics" but I don't not feel it to be a good idea, I know any advice tended on this forum can have it's consequences if not carried out correctly however with electrics one mistake can be one to many. This forum is a great resource and lot's of helpful people but at times to helpful with advice which is going off subject and when your talking about electrics of mains voltage could be deadly. At the moment anyone looking for for suggestions to solve their electric problem will normally get it solved.

h

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

Most places I worked in had notices saying Electricity Kills (or can kill), that is a pretty good bet if people who do not understand it dabble.

[File HandleParticipant @filehandle]

Posted by Fowlers Fury on 13/07/2020 11:44:01:

I'd like to better Peter Shaw's claim to fame viz " And there is the pistol drill at probably 35 to 40 years old (and which still makes the battery powered things look puny!) "
I'm now 76 and my parents gave me a Christmas present when I was 11. It was a mains Wolf Cub drill.
(I should add Santa also provided a lambswool polishing bonnet no doubt in response to my mother's letter to him because she used the my drill regularly for polishing the lino).
Altho' it has a 1/4" fairly crude chuck – it is still in regular use after 65 years.
I echo Peter's words – it makes the battery powered things look puny.
To my shame it has only been dismantled once to clean out sawdust and to oil the felt pad. I've also replaced the mains lead – again, once.

Mine is a slightly younger white and gold B&D with a 1/2" chuck. It was my third drill in my teens. I bought it with savings. Previously I burnt out an old secondhand drill and a cheap B&D, both gifts. I remember my mother trying to persuade me not to buy it, but it lasted much better than the first 2. Suspect it will outlast me. I saw a tradesman using one a few years ago, he had rescued it from a skip.

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

On the general concensus devloping on this thread that electrickery is dangerous, and kills you dead at the first opportunity, I would like to remind you all that any machinery with exposed moving parts is dangerous, steam is dangerous, ladders are dangerous, knives are dangerous etc etc, and the one thing that removes the danger as far as possible is education, you do not need to understand electricity mathematically or scientifically, to produce a safe correct and working installation, you just have to follow a certain set of rules that apply to all the above "dangerous" items. I think this is a very good idea, along the lines of " electric motors in the home workshop" which we all use! As a qualified and certificated electrical engineer, I would be very supportive of this type of topic, mainly because this sort of subject leads to more safety, and more knowledge in the home workshop.

Phil

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

In fact, the present mains drill was on offer, maybe it was shop soiled, B&D H68V, 1/2 in chuck, 2 mechanical speeds, trigger speed controller, drill or drill + hammer selector. Prior to this one I have had a B&D 720 which I managed to burn out a few times, and a B&D 820, can't remember what happened to that, but the present one has done very well for me.

The first drill was bought for my 21st birthday back in the days when being 21 meant something.

If anyone's interested, the H68V came from Arnold Laver in Bradford.

Peter G. Shaw

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I'm quite happy for 'basic' issues to be discussed in the electronics topic – it's all the same electrons…

There are lots of sensible issues that could be covered, from making crimp connections and using a continuity tester to how to identify motor windings and connect a Dewhurst switch.

If anyone sees genuinely unsafe advice please just report the posting.

Neil

 

 

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 13/07/2020 15:18:32

[Alan BoneParticipant @alanbone]

I have an ancient Millers Falls 1/2 inch chuck drill which my father used in his workshop about 1946. About 300rpm, weighs about 8 kg, with a "D" grip on the end and 2 x 1" (25mm) x 12" (300mm) water pipe side grips. Cannot be stalled, if the drill bit catches, operator spins instead.

Alan

[Bill Davies 2Participant @billdavies2]

Alan's comment reminds me of the 'gut-buster' power drills used where I worked for drilling holes by hand on top of 20 ton castings. Big motor, a pipe handle sticking out on each side, usually a two-man job. I can't recall what make they were, but I imagine there was a genuine risk of rotating the operator !

Bill

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Posted by Harry Wilkes on 13/07/2020 14:05:22:

Not wishing to put a damp squid on the suggestion of a section for "basic electrics" but I don't not feel it to be a good idea, I know any advice tended on this forum can have it's consequences if not carried out correctly however with electrics one mistake can be one to many. This forum is a great resource and lot's of helpful people but at times to helpful with advice which is going off subject and when your talking about electrics of mains voltage could be deadly. At the moment anyone looking for for suggestions to solve their electric problem will normally get it solved.

h

Hi Harry, on the other hand, those who are looking for an answer but can not get one, may go ahead and do what they think is right, but may put them selves in serious danger. I think it is better to learn about basic electrics and learn whether one is confident to understand want one wants to achieve or decide to leave it to someone who does. Of course basic electrics is not only about mains voltage, as even battery operated things have basic electrics in them. Better to be advised not to do a wrong wiring configuration than try one your not sure of, as even batteries can cause things to get hot and burn.

Regards Nick.

[Len Morris 2Participant @lenmorris2]

Well, my original post made with the best intention, proved to be force 9 on the Richter scale! Obviously if you can't wire a 13 amp plug then don't mess with the job and don't even consider going anywhere near 3 phase!

The concept of "Basic Electrics" as a forum suggestion was not intended to be about a battery, switch and light bulb circuit. Perhaps a better name might be "Vintage Electrics".

All my machines are packed full of 40 year old switch gear designed to withstand a nuclear a blast. (Siemens, Klockner-Moeller, GEC Alsthom etc.). They are all fully serviceable unlike today's sealed units. The trick is knowing how they dismantle. I wouldn't look for this information under an "Electronics" label.

How about wiring an E-stop circuit full of NC / NO switches or wiring a rotary switch with 24 possible connections. Again, nothing to do with "Electronics".

Anyway, enough said.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I'm not one for having masses of forum topics, everyone thinks they are a good idea when suggested then get used for a couple of weeks before there is little activity. Chances are 90% will get posted in general discussions or beginners questions anyway and the rest probably in machine tools or electronics.

[I.M. OUTAHEREParticipant @i-m-outahere]

I know that a local electronics mag has had issues with publishing projects that use mains power or control mains powered items , they have ample warnings throughout any published project warning of the dangers of mains power and the usual warning telling the reader that if they don’t know what they are doing with mains power get someone who is to wire it or at least check it before use- It is becoming more and more of a legal minefield !
I don’t see any problems as long as it mainly concerning electrical work after the wall plug and not how to re wire your workshop !

You could also add basic electronics into this thread to cover things like wiring stepper motors and drives , digital tachometers and Arduino/ microcontroller stuff.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 13/07/2020 15:18:09:

I'm quite happy for 'basic' issues to be discussed in the electronics topic – it's all the same electrons…

There are lots of sensible issues that could be covered, from making crimp connections and using a continuity tester to how to identify motor windings and connect a Dewhurst switch.

…

Neil

A good thing about this forum is it doesn't fuss about how and where questions are asked. But I see why Len and others might feel electrical questions posted under 'Electronics in the Workshop' might be a fa*ting in church, even though it isn't. In comparison a Basic Electrics topic is welcoming. Phil Whitley and Len get my vote; as a topic Basic Electrics is more likely to be used than Northumbrian, or Southern Q1!

Basic electrics aren't vintage or out-of-date either, it's all valid stuff.

Dave

[Steve NeighbourParticipant @steveneighbour43428]

There is a big difference between "Electricity at Work" and "Electricity at Home" – not the electricity it's self, obviously it is the same, although at work or in the larger homes there may well be 3 phase, which immediately increases the risk and danger to the untrained. But . . .the way in which electricity is operated and used is very different, for example, in the work place any 'work' on or near electrical apparatus MUST be covered by a 'safe system of work' requiring an 'isolation and locking off' procedure, and issue of a safety document to record the actions taken to prevent inadvertent electrocution to the person sticking their fingers on the conductors !

How many of us would do something like this at home, when you're next balanced on a pair of steps wiring in another 6ft tube in your workshop, ask yourself could your shmbo wander in and turn on the light and 'zap' you because you have only switched it off at the light switch rather than isolating it correctly ?

I would think that prospect wouldn't even cross our minds, or what about the four different things plugged into one 13A socket (I've seen the pictures on here of folks workshop set-ups)

How many Lathes and Milling machines are plugged in with a 3 pin 13A plug ? when it would be much better if they were connected to a 'dedicated fused spur' protected by a MCB of the correct rating ?

There are, I'm sure many of us who undertake 'home electrical work' and I suspect that a lot is not even close to meeting the requirements of the Institute of Electrical Engineers 17th edition Regulations.

If there are folk on here who can offer qualified and SAFE advice, then in my mind that has to be a good thing, and if the advice offered is dubious, then knowing how forums work, it will be corrected PDQ by someone who knows better !

Steve

[Maurice TaylorParticipant @mauricetaylor82093]

Please explain why a small machine say 1HP or less shouldn’t use a plug .

What is wrong with 4 low power items plugged in 4 way socket ?

[EmgeeParticipant @emgee]

Posted by Maurice Taylor on 13/07/2020 23:13:36:

Please explain why a small machine say 1HP or less shouldn’t use a plug .

What is wrong with 4 low power items plugged in 4 way socket ?

I have 9 pieces of machinery in my workshop and they are all fitted with good quality 13A 3 pin plugs, I cannot see anything wrong with that method as each plug can be fitted with a fuse to suit the load of the particular machine. I do concede though wiring fitted into a DP switched fused spur may provide a better connection in some instances where poor quality plugs and sockets are used.
Pulling the plug out of the socket ensures the power is isolated if changing belts, blades or other work is needed.
I also use a 4 way 13A extension lead with a computer and 2 VDU's plus a compressor when required.

In industry above 0.5HP motors require more attention and are likely to have a NVR starter and means of locking off the isolator supplying power to the starter.

Emgee

[Author]

Posts