ARC – PayPal and Credit Cards

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi there It is easy for customers to rip you off with paypal. I have lost several hundred pounds when the buyers filed a fraudulent transaction claim and I also had chargeback claims.

I don't like using debit/credit cards to pay online as I don't think they are very safe. I do use them for ArcEuroTrade and similar UK companies I know and trust. However, I don't think they are safe. We enter our card details online including the three digit security number. How does the security number make the card safe when we have to give the security number to suppliers?

I did hear of a sales rep who took a card payment and used the details for online gambling. I won't embarrass the company he worked for by mentioning them.

Edited By David Clark 1 on 18/10/2015 18:12:24

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by David Clark 1 on 18/10/2015 18:07:17:

Hi there It is easy for customers to rip you off with paypal. I have lost several hundred pounds when the buyers filed a fraudulent transaction claim and I also had chargeback claims.

I don't like using debit/credit cards to pay online as I don't think they are very safe. I do use them for ArcEoroTrade and similar UK companies I know and trust. However, I don't think they are safe. We enter our card details online including the three digit security number. How does the security number make the card safe when we have to give the security number to suppliers?

I did hear of a sales rep who took a card payment and used the details for online gambling. I won't embarrass the company he worked for by mentioning them.

Edited By David Clark 1 on 18/10/2015 18:11:26

David,

I don't entirely understand what you are getting at. The on-line payment gateway is secure. The seller as in our case, uses a secure payment gateway provider – Sage Pay in our case. We don't even get to see your card number!. Additionally, to get the service of on-line payment – Merchant Services – involving our bank, World Pay, Sage Pay, SSL security, ARC as a company has to jump through many hoops, with compliance and personal recourse guarantees. Now a days, most U.K. registered on-line businesses, – one which are legal – operating in and operating from the U.K. have to go through these hurdles, to accept on-line payments.

Ketan.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Yesterday on a shopping channel (don't ask), they showed a person marketing a USB stick which you put into your computer, to hide your IP location. It marketed the concept of security. Really?…sure it was nothing to do with the person not wanting to show who he is incase he is seeing a site which he shouldn't or doing something he shouldn't, or committing fraud of some description?

Such devices issue 'virtual I.P' addresses.Combine that with 'virtual cards' to place an order on ARCs site, and it returns a 'high risk' score, because it is difficult to figure out who the payer is and/or if the person is legitimate. What does such a user hope to gain?

Ketan at ARC.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I generally do use a debit card to pay on line. What I generally don't do even in ARC's case is store the details on line with them.

In a few cases such as BT details are with them but not the security number – EVER on any of them. It shouldn't be. Not all that much protection really but better than nothing.

I have had my debit card hacked and copied but not from online use, simply buying petrol in a garage. I had a phone call at work one day. Bank asking me if I had bought any petrol the day before. Odd thing to recall instantly so they followed it up with the comment buy petrol 3 times, several full shopping baskets from different super markets and lastly a holiday in Spain along with a book to read on the way. Several £1000 in total. The biggest inconvenience to me was that the card was frozen. It took them a few days to sort out. That was bad as I couldn't withdraw any money. We were going on holiday before that happened so had to take £1000 out of the BS and stuff it in the car's glove box. Petrol easily sorted out as I always fill to a £1. Groceries and holiday not me so no problem. Actually they made a note about filling to the nearest £ and noticed that I had changed to nearest 50p suggesting I had bought a VW. I had. Any time I make an online debit card transaction it's vetted through the bank. If feel that things are a lot better in this area these days but I don't generally leave details with retailers due to an experience some friends had – odd transactions rather a long time after they had used the card with a particular retailer. I am not keen on giving the detail out over the phone either for that very same reason.

If paypal is offered I do use it providing there is no surcharge but often wonder why the hell I often have to type my address out again. Irritating and it might allow some one to send stuff some where else. I do like the only to paypal registered addresses aspects.

There is one problem with using debit cards – protection for the buyer. Credit cards offer more. With distance selling regs in the uk that might not be so much of a problem as it used to be. However if any doubt I use the credit card.

John

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[VicParticipant @vic]

I've never been asked for a surcharge when using PayPal but once again I'd go elsewhere to buy stuff if I was.

A friend of mine has a credit card with a low purchase limit on it exclusively for online purchases so that if it does get hacked in some way the damage is limited.

Another way I like to buy stuff is through Amazon as I know if I have any problems I'll get reimbursed and they don't surcharge for CC use.

I've not yet found that I can't buy a product I want the way I wish to pay for it so in that respect customer is king so they say. Let's hope it remains that way.

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by Ketan Swali on 18/10/2015 18:31:05:

Yesterday on a shopping channel (don't ask), they showed a person marketing a USB stick which you put into your computer, to hide your IP location. It marketed the concept of security. Really?…sure it was nothing to do with the person not wanting to show who he is incase he is seeing a site which he shouldn't or doing something he shouldn't, or committing fraud of some description?

Such devices issue 'virtual I.P' addresses.Combine that with 'virtual cards' to place an order on ARCs site, and it returns a 'high risk' score, because it is difficult to figure out who the payer is and/or if the person is legitimate. What does such a user hope to gain?

Ketan at ARC.

Why assume that a person is up to no good, just because he wishes to maintain his privacy?

Martin.

[Bruce EdneyParticipant @bruceedney59949]

I don't have a problem with ARC not accepting Paypal but I do object to them not allowing shipping to a a UK address when paying by an international credit card.

Because of this policy I have made purchases from AUSEE for the same items I would have got from ARC when some of my family were visiting the UK.

ARC is the only company I have struck this with.

Such a pity as I would like to buy more items from them when I need something.

Bruce

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi Ketan A lot of companies on the Internet ask you to fill in an online form. They do not use a secure gateway. I Have no problems with ArcEuroTrade. Regards David

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by blowlamp on 19/10/2015 01:11:27:

Posted by Ketan Swali on 18/10/2015 18:31:05:

Yesterday on a shopping channel (don't ask), they showed a person marketing a USB stick which you put into your computer, to hide your IP location. It marketed the concept of security. Really?…sure it was nothing to do with the person not wanting to show who he is incase he is seeing a site which he shouldn't or doing something he shouldn't, or committing fraud of some description?

Such devices issue 'virtual I.P' addresses.Combine that with 'virtual cards' to place an order on ARCs site, and it returns a 'high risk' score, because it is difficult to figure out who the payer is and/or if the person is legitimate. What does such a user hope to gain?

Ketan at ARC.

Why assume that a person is up to no good, just because he wishes to maintain his privacy?

Martin.

You need to figure out how a usb stick would achieve this when your isp provides you ip address. All it can do is pass what ever you are doing through a proxy. There is no way of knowing what is going on on that.

John

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[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by blowlamp on 19/10/2015 01:11:27:

Posted by Ketan Swali on 18/10/2015 18:31:05:

Yesterday on a shopping channel (don't ask), they showed a person marketing a USB stick which you put into your computer, to hide your IP location. It marketed the concept of security. Really?…sure it was nothing to do with the person not wanting to show who he is incase he is seeing a site which he shouldn't or doing something he shouldn't, or committing fraud of some description?

Such devices issue 'virtual I.P' addresses.Combine that with 'virtual cards' to place an order on ARCs site, and it returns a 'high risk' score, because it is difficult to figure out who the payer is and/or if the person is legitimate. What does such a user hope to gain?

Ketan at ARC.

Why assume that a person is up to no good, just because he wishes to maintain his privacy?

Martin.

Martin, you make a good and valid point. I may be wrong in my assumption. At the end of the day, when such transactions enter through the gateway, amongst other checks, the security checks the I.P location, with type of card being used with the issuer details. So, the payment risk score increases per element of risk picked-up by the system. More virtuals = increase in risk. In-turn, the system states that the issuing bank does not guarantee the authorisation. In other words, if we accept the payment, it is with strong recourse.

So, in such cases it is up to ARC if they chose to accept the risk. If the banking system refuses to guarantee the payment, and the risk score is high, ARC would prefer to avoid. Thankfully, this is a situation which is encountered with the minority.

Ketan at ARC.

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Online fraud could be thought to be akin to the 'shrinkage' (e.g. shoplifting) that many conventional retailers have to contend with, except of course that it can sometimes also potentially expose the retailers customers too. No small business can afford to sustain steady losses of this kind, whatever form the theft takes. So I have no absolutely no issues with any business that takes sensible precautions to protect itself (and its customers) from such abuse.

From what Ketan has said, I am reassured that he seems aware of some of the potential problems and is not only protecting his own interests in this area but is also thinking about those of his customers.

That sounds good to me.

Regards,

IanT

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Bruce Edney on 19/10/2015 05:36:45:

I don't have a problem with ARC not accepting Paypal but I do object to them not allowing shipping to a a UK address when paying by an international credit card.

Because of this policy I have made purchases from AUSEE for the same items I would have got from ARC when some of my family were visiting the UK.

ARC is the only company I have struck this with.

Such a pity as I would like to buy more items from them when I need something.

Bruce

Sorry Bruce, its nothing personal. With International Credit Cards, the payment gateway asks your bank if it guarantees your payment. The same statement also applies to PayPal. In such cases, your bank (or PayPal) refuses to give payment guarantees, becasue the goods are being shipped to a thrird party address. If this was a U.K. payer asking for delivery to a third party U.K. address, and if the bank did not issue a guarantee, the risk is lower. But internationally, the risk becomes higher. To protect you, if your bank refuses to guarantee the payment, it becomes more difficult for ARC to consider.

So, for international payments, we normally ship to credit card registered address.

Whilst you may be a known person, this is a blanket policy we are having to apply, resulting from issues which have already taken place in our history, namely in Ireland, Spain, Italy, and Australia, especailly with PayPal, with all of the disputes being resolved in our favour….eventually. So, please accept my apologies.

Ketan at ARC.

Edited By Ketan Swali on 19/10/2015 10:11:39

Edited By Ketan Swali on 19/10/2015 10:14:09

Edited By Ketan Swali on 19/10/2015 10:14:32

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

I don't have a UK debit card only credit cards and a French debit card so I've just placed an order and my wife has paid with her UK debit card. Thanks Ketan

Russell.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Paypal does allow people to register more than one address. It caused me a problem. A supplier had shipped to my second one and didn't bother checking the address on the order as the other one was on his system. Result parcel went awol so he sent me another. To the correct address in this case. I only use the other one if I know I will be there.

John

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[Enough!Participant @enough]

Posted by Bruce Edney on 19/10/2015 05:36:45:

I do object to them not allowing shipping to a a UK address when paying by an international credit card.

Certainly, in the past, it has been the policy of many (perhaps all) CC companies that the merchant should only ship to the registered CC address – as an obvious aid to security – regardless of how the merchant felt about it. In my experience that seems to have softened a little in recent years (surprisingly IMO) but I don't know how far the constraints have actually been loosened.

It's not necessarily the merchant's doing, in whole or in part.

[Bruce EdneyParticipant @bruceedney59949]

Well I just purchased two new cylinder castings from Stuart Models using a different shipping address to the Billing address (Card Address). All went through fine. So it seems it is at the merchant's discretion.

Bruce

[Nick ThorpeParticipant @nickthorpe64546]

I would just like to post a few words in defence of Arc Euro's policies. They are not a huge company that can offset costs . They provide a good product at a fair price, with good service and it is up to them what they do with payments. I run a plumbing business and don't take credit cards because it is too expensive. My business, my choice. Nick.

[Enough!Participant @enough]

Posted by Bruce Edney on 20/10/2015 02:06:45:

Well I just purchased two new cylinder castings from Stuart Models using a different shipping address to the Billing address (Card Address). All went through fine. So it seems it is at the merchant's discretion.

Yes, I too have found merchants that will do it in recent years whereas 15 – 20 years ago they cited their CC merchants' agreement as preventing them.

I suspect (but don't know) that the situation now – and perhaps before also in reality – is that the CC company doesn't refuse the transaction if the ship-to address is different but limits their own liability in this case. So that if it turns out to be fraudulent, the merchant is on the hook.

Perhaps some merchants accept that – particularly with high mark-up items where their actual loss is small compared with the transaction amount. Or perhaps some merchants simply don't read their merchant agreements in detail.

Edited By Bandersnatch on 20/10/2015 22:06:45

[Danny M2ZParticipant @dannym2z]

At the end of the day, are not all business banking overheads written off the profits at tax-time?

I don't purchase from ARC due to postage costs to Australia, Ausee don't even answer their email enquiries so quickly wrote them off and now LMS is top of my list as they take all kinds of payment without a surcharge, ship promptly and at such low prices that the postage cost is absorbed (especially if one gets the discount code) which more than covers differences between the UK/US and local suppliers **LINK**. How can LMS get around these difficulties and ARC cannot. Is it sales volume?

There are still a few decent local suppliers in Oz, but hard to track down as they are often a portal for their cousins in China although they quickly ship the product (postmarked accordingly).

* Danny M *

Edited By Danny M2Z on 21/10/2015 08:17:17

[doubletopParticipant @doubletop]

Bruce

A conversation for the 4th Nov meeting

Pete

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Bandersnatch on 20/10/2015 22:06:05:

Posted by Bruce Edney on 20/10/2015 02:06:45:

Well I just purchased two new cylinder castings from Stuart Models using a different shipping address to the Billing address (Card Address). All went through fine. So it seems it is at the merchant's discretion.

Yes, I too have found merchants that will do it in recent years whereas 15 – 20 years ago they cited their CC merchants' agreement as preventing them.

I suspect (but don't know) that the situation now – and perhaps before also in reality – is that the CC company doesn't refuse the transaction if the ship-to address is different but limits their own liability in this case. So that if it turns out to be fraudulent, the merchant is on the hook.

Perhaps some merchants accept that – particularly with high mark-up items where their actual loss is small compared with the transaction amount. Or perhaps some merchants simply don't read their merchant agreements in detail.

Edited By Bandersnatch on 20/10/2015 22:06:45

Broadly speaking, you are right when it comes to CC company guarantee. Generally they are happy to give the guarantee '3D Secure' if shipments are made to the card registered address. For shipment to anywhere else, it is up to the seller if they chose to consider the order without guarantee of payment.

Ketan at ARC.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Danny M2Z on 21/10/2015 08:13:58:

At the end of the day, are not all business banking overheads written off the profits at tax-time?

I don't purchase from ARC due to postage costs to Australia, Ausee don't even answer their email enquiries so quickly wrote them off and now LMS is top of my list as they take all kinds of payment without a surcharge, ship promptly and at such low prices that the postage cost is absorbed (especially if one gets the discount code) which more than covers differences between the UK/US and local suppliers **LINK**. How can LMS get around these difficulties and ARC cannot. Is it sales volume?

There are still a few decent local suppliers in Oz, but hard to track down as they are often a portal for their cousins in China although they quickly ship the product (postmarked accordingly).

* Danny M *

Edited By Danny M2Z on 21/10/2015 08:17:17

How LMS choose to conduct their business, is really a choice which is made by Chris and his team. They have more sales then ARC, and they employ a bigger team. USA is a big market. Perhaps any losses made are workable for him to offset against profit at the end of their financial year.

With reference to ARC, our profit margins are tight. Our overheads are different from the U.S., and ARC currently employs a smaller team. Presently I make the financial decisions, which are based on my experiance with losses resulting from fraud over time. May be my judgement is clouded by my experience.

At present, ARCs business is growing at a steady pace.

Our Ian has taken over the responsibility for sales, and in time, he and the team at ARC will have the overall responsibilities of running this business. ARC regularly reviews its policy. It is up to Ian and the team to decide if, how or when they wish to re-introduce PayPal or anything else, as the business grows. It is upto them to choose.

Once they take over, I will be more free, and may be I will come over to Australia to give AUSEE a hand to check his inbox or junk box and answer his emails.

Ketan at ARC.

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Hi Ketan

………"Once they take over, I will be more free,…….

That sounds like a "pipe and slippers" move to me! Don't you believe it! I managed to retire very early ( company downsizing making an offer I couldn't refuse ) .. then I got another job which was very like going out to my workshop to "play" ! After a few years of that the opportunity arose to retire to the country… and here we are in deepest Devon with a nice workshop. ( Pipe and slippers though – don't you believe it! Confucius him say " Man with workshop soon have many friends … then little time to himself!&quot

Good luck

Norman

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

You are lucky Norman, and you are almost right.

In ARCs case, the issue is a little different.. January 2014 I bought a new unit = expansion. Soon figured out that this means more work. More work is good while mind and body are up to it. We are all happy to do it, but as we get older, certain energy levels suggest to take it easy. Bank asks me 'What is my exit strategy?'….good question which niggles away at the back of my mind, until recently.

– Younger members of my team are up for the expansion, full of energy, but variable levels of experience.

– Bank is happy with what we do.

– SIEG wants us to expand our business.

Mind is happy, but body says that you only have a certain amount of energy.

'Life Balance' has to be taken into consideration.

So hand over to a management team begins over the the next five years. ARC is now looking to employ new people to add to its team, as part of the expansion program.

Ketan at ARC.

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Sounds like a wise decision Ketan – it's not good to die "rich" and young!

As the song says " Stop and smell the roses".

Please keep up your ( always interesting) input here though.

Norman

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