Amateurs

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

This thread is freaking hilarious.

  

We are told in no uncertain terms that Donald is a TIME SERVED TURNER and has no time at all for amateurs or Chinese machines. However because he’s half blind it has passed him by that he’s managed, with one hand, to find himself on a Model Engineers HOBBY forum.

 

Now because this is a HOBBY most people have to make do with what they can afford time wise and money wise to carry out this hobby, same with woodworking, basket weaving.

 

So our intrepid TIME SERVED CENTRE LATHE TURNER used to and I’ll come to that later, remember the “used to” bit, do his 8 hours at Rolls Royce or BREL then come home and start work on his own Dean Smitt and Grace 14″ x 84 CENTRE LATHE he has at home just to prove he wasn’t an amateur?

 

 

Now I say ‘used to’ because if you read the situations vacant column in any of the papers when was the last time you saw an job advert for CENTRE LATHE TURNER ?

Probably 15 years ago at least as all turning in industry is now done on CNC machines.

 

 

I know some very skilled people who are not time served but can use a lathe with no problems as regards getting a job out the door in the shortest time and to spec.

I also know some time served men who to put it bluntly think they are better experienced that they ever will be.

 

John S.

Edited By David Clark 1 on 25/03/2011 11:34:51

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi All,

 

to be absolutely precise, an amateur is simply a person who is not paid for their work, while a Professional is one who has a certain level of qualification, lives up to set standards and belongs to one of the professional organisations such as the BMA, GTC, IME, or IEE etc not merely one who is paid for their work. The term has become debased into meaning one who is paid for their work.

 

However be that as it may Donald may have worked for 40 yars as a craftsman turner but his comments reminds of an old story of a young craftsman being told off by an old hand. The older worker told him to pay attention as he had “30 years experience” behind him but the ripost was, “no sir, I think you have had one year’s experience 30 times over.”  Sound familiar folks?

 

Most of us hobby machinists often have to do one thing only once, not a hundred or thousand times as one might get in a production environment. We don’t have the luxury of such practice. Most of us spend a few hours a week enjoying a hobby. We may botch things and make mistakes but we are amateurs, and we can learn by those mistakes. As amateurs we also have to learn to weld, braze, mill, silver solder etc etc. We have to be turners, millers, blacksmiths, coppersmiths and often pattern makers and founders We have a multitude of skills and ingenuity that many others with their narrow skills do not have.

 

When I see some of the beautiful models built by amateurs I am amazed by the range and quality of skills and products displayed by quitew ordinary folk from a wide cross section of the population.

 

Sorry Donald but I don’t think you have the qualities, knowledge or inelligence to pass comment on a prety wonderful bunch of people such as we have on this forum.

 

Regards

 

Terry

 PS I forgot to say, put up or shut up.  Go away and leave the rest of us to bumble through our wonderful hobby.

 

T

 

Edited By Terryd on 23/03/2011 21:49:11

Edited By Terryd on 23/03/2011 21:51:45

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Very interesting posts one and all. It’s become very obvious that we all have something to bring to the table for us to learn from or not as the case may be.I have really enjoyed all the discussion that Donald instigated, long may it continue.

Tony

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi There again,

 

While on the subject of amateurs, My good friend Eric whittle was cremated last week.. I was privileged to know the man who considered himself an amateur, but he was able to produce some stunning work. his best known is his 3.5cc V8 aero engine which I again had the privilege to hold and inspect with Eric. He built the engine on a Myford with a milling fixture. I include a couple of my pictures below to show the quality of this amateurish example of his work. Please post us some pictures of your work Donald to impress us.  Click on the pictures to enlarge and be amazed, be very amazed!

 

 

No castings, rockers hand carved from carbon steel. Built from offcuts from a friends Aero parts company.

 

By the way, he designed it himself as well as just making it just to prove it could be done. Here is a video of it working.

 

with sadness at a great loss,

 

Terry

PS – to all those who replied the original poster, I may not always see eye to eye with everyone but I’ll stand shoulder to shoulder against idiots like this.

 

Regards

 

T

Edited By Terryd on 23/03/2011 22:09:44

Edited By Terryd on 23/03/2011 22:14:04

[David ColwillParticipant @davidcolwill19261]

“many times there is only 1 way do do the job”

Well at least we know who to blame the death of engineering in this country on!

It’s a shame that other countries found cheaper ways while we were p*****g about trying to do things properly!

 

[mgjParticipant @mgj]

Tony – some of the stuff they couldn’t even paint properly, and one man – a Quality Manager actually said “I don’t know why you are worried about this, but these tanks are never going to war”. Well they did inside 3 years.

 

I was just gobsmacked at how really really bad a lot of it was, and the politics behind it. I can only hope it has got better.

 

At least with a CNC machine one takes the man out of the loop, and thats probably a pretty good thing IMO.

 

As for bits of car being expensive – well yes they were/are and not just at F1 level. But which would you rather have. The bit you asked for, or two bits nearly like the bit you wanted? The trouble is a lot of people don’t actually understand that some things have been engineered, and that they may have been designed to a given strength or fatigue life, with given safety margins. So when something comes back and it might fit but it hasn’t been properly heat treated or finished or whatever, its almost certainly expensive junk. I had quite a lot of that.

 

So I’m very jaundiced about it. Sorry, but the average production machinist has rather a lot of ground to make up, in my direction anyway.

Edited By mgj on 23/03/2011 22:47:27

[chris stephensParticipant @chrisstephens63393]

Hi Terry,

I would have picked you up on the debasing of “professional” but we have we have higher things to think about, ie our new friend! I can also forgive you anything after your “no sir, I think you have had one year’s experience 30 times over.” How true, it does sum up some people’s abilities beautifully. Best put-down I have heard for years. I might have to use your quote myself.

It reminds me of an Oscar Wilde “quote”. Upon hearing a witty remark he said to a friend that he wished that he had thought of it first, to which his friend said “Don’t worry Oscar, you will”.

ATB

chriStephens

[Sam StonesParticipant @samstones42903]

Hi Donald,

In all seriousness, thank you for your initial posting, it has led to some very entertaining rhetoric.

Against your name I notice that it says: “This member does not have a public profile”.

While we mere amateurs wait for pictures of your work, why not fill in the public profile too?

 

Sam

[Richard ParsonsParticipant @richardparsons61721]

“No! you cannot do that, it will not work!” they said. “Oh dear” I said “I wish you had told me that last week, you would have saved me a lot of time, because I have done it and it works”.

(Stage directions -Exit men clucking like chickens.-)

[Donald WittmannParticipant @donaldwittmann92536]

Terryd, I have refrained from attacking individuals during this post [I have no intention of] but I could happily make an exception in your case.

 

mgj, Your experience off AFV manufacture tells it’s own story. Why do you think the German Leopard 2A6 is widely regarded as the worlds best. because the men/women who build the things take care to do the job RIGHT. You will find that with all German firms Apprentices are given solid advice and taught “Do it Right ” or the door is over there.

Donald.

[Donald MitchellParticipant @donaldmitchell68891]

Hi Engineers,

 

I am Donald Mitchell, please don’t associate me with Donald Whitman.

 

I have the same Christian name, and it seems I am also required to share my native Scotland with him; but in no way do I share his sentiments.

 

Donald Mitchell
Castle Douglas
Bonnie Scotland

Edited By Donald Mitchell on 24/03/2011 08:26:26

Edited By David Clark 1 on 25/03/2011 11:35:26

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, IMO, any method of producing what you set out to achieve is correct. Donald I personally find your suggested F word on here offensive and belitting to those you are aiming it at. If you think thier advise is unsatisfactory, then I think you should say in a more constructive and adult way. Those who you consider are giving bad advise will not learn a better way with your type of attitude. I may well follow Kwil’s lead and put you in the ignore member list that I haven’t got yet, if you contiue you holyer than thou approch.

 

Regards Nick.

[mgjParticipant @mgj]

I think it a pity. The whole thing. I’m sure the Germans have it right, but we were talking of Brit industry

 

As for morse tapers. Ii agree entirely about the tailstock – its no trouble to reset , but I have better things to do than reset. So while it may not be correct, I just use my taper turning attachment . If I hadn’t made one of those I’d use a boring head in the tailstock, and offset with that. Again, not correct, but it seems to work.

Edited By mgj on 24/03/2011 08:54:33

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Posted by Donald Wittman on 24/03/2011 08:21:06:

Terryd, I have refrained from attacking individuals during this post [I have no intention of] but I could happily make an exception in your case.

 

mgj, Your experience off AFV manufacture tells it’s own story. Why do you think the German Leopard 2A6 is widely regarded as the worlds best. because the men/women who build the things take care to do the job RIGHT. You will find that with all German firms Apprentices are given solid advice and taught “Do it Right ” or the door is over there.

Donald.

 

Donald,

 

Usually the most anger is aimed at the one who speaks the truth that stings, It seems that I touched a raw nerve.  Such threats are often the result of an inferiority complex. Instead of insult and bluster, if you could possibly manage to be constructive instead of insulting us all here then your comments would be more than welcome. Advise us with your superior knowledge by all means, please do, but don’t simply insult us. Many of us are also time served but we don’t make it a central plank of our arguments. I know that I only served a 5yr apprenticeship to become a toolmaker but that obviously counts for nothing in the eyes of a turner and it was 50 years since I started. By the way, I stand by all I say.

 

Regards

 

Terry

Edited By Terryd on 24/03/2011 08:59:41

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Donald.

 

Taking your example of there being only 1 correct way to turn a Morse taper.

 

Surely the correct way would be to use a Taper Turning Attachment.

 

This is my preferred method, given that if more than 1 item needs to be made, then repeatability of the taper angle can not be guaranteed between centres, simply because each blank will vary in length and so will the depth of it’s centres.

 

Personally, I find the ‘test bar’ method of resetting the tailstock to be unreliable for close accuracy and find that a test cut on some scrap to be a much better way of returning to a parallel setting.

 

 

Martin.

 

 

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by Donald Wittman on 24/03/2011 07:53:25:

Sam, I have filled out my profile,

Now lets get one thing straight I am NOT against all amateurs only the ones that appear on these forums that offer “advice”? that is not worth a F**K I will give you a classic example, The amount of times someone posts in asking the best way to turn a Morse taper, usually an external one. Now there are a few ways to do it but only 1 CORRECT way,and that is to offset the tail stock and use power feed

Donald.

 

 

 

These is NO ONE CORRECT WAY, that may be YOUR correct way but it’s not the only one.

 

Ironically I am also time served, I still earn a living on machines working for myself so I only have to answer to myself and not some foreman who may or may not know it all.

 

I’d like to point out that I have never set a tailstock over in all my life even though I have done many hundreds of tapers, in fact it’s got to be thousands as I job I do has a taper on the end of it and the call off is 100 every 3 months or so.

 

 

So how would you turn this steep taper under power feed?

Can’t use the top slide, not enough travel.

Can’t use the taper turning attachment,won’t go steep enough.

Can’t offset the tailstock, wont go steep enough.

 

So in your book it’s impossible to do because there is only one CORRECT way ?

 

Bull-excrement.

 

John S..

 

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

Donald (Wittman, not Mitchell),

 

Regarding your comment that there is often only one way to do something.

 

The late Tubal Cain said in one of his writings something along the lines of “that there is never a wrong way to do something in engineering”. Sorry, I cannot easily find the reference, nor can I remember it exactly so you will just have to take it as Gospel. Anyway, I take it that this means that as long as the eventual result performs its purpose adequately, then that will be satisfactory.

 

In case you don’t know, Tubal Cain, or T. D. Walshaw to give him his correct name, was a highly skilled engineer and author of a number of books aimed at the amateur. He was, in his time, also a diesel engine designer and there are at least two books written by him on this subject.

 

I rather think that he knew what he was talking about. And I for one, as a very humble and low level self-teaching the hard way amateur, am extremely grateful for his writings. As I am for the kind help that has been given to me in this forum. Comments such as yours do not help.

 

Regards,

 

Peter G. Shaw

[John OlsenParticipant @johnolsen79199]

There is rarely only “one correct way”. With your example of turning a taper, in what way is turning it with a taper attachment inferior to turning it with an offset tailstock? Is it not true that either can produce a satisfatory result, and that each has advantages and disadvantages? Depending on the circumstances, one method may be preferred to another for purely local reasons, such as whether or not a taper turning attachment is available. If it is, it is likely to save time on setup. (and reset) But of course many amateurs do not happen to posess one, and it may not be worth obtaining one for a limited number of items. I happen to be a professional myself, but in telecommunications, another of our members is a surgeon, while yet another is a lawyer. So we at least know that there is nothing magical about being a professional. (Actually it carries a professional obligation to admit your ignorance where necessary)

 

Terry can be annoying at times, but you are not exactly winning yourself any friends with your own attitude. I don’t know how much experience you have with written rather than spoken communication, but it would seem to me that you have a bit to learn about how to avoid offending and annoying people. Since the whole point of making a post is presumably to communicate with people, it would seem counterproductive to switch off a large portion of the possible audience before they have read anything you might have to say. Some of what you will see here is advice from people who have used the technique they describe, some is not, but is for instance a suggestion of what they would try based on their own experience and equipment. You can usually tell which is which, especially if you have followed things for a bit. Most of us are willing to consider other approaches, we are here to learn. Indeed, there would be little point in reading the posts if there was not the hope of learning something.

 

Finally “model engineering”, whatever that actually is, is not actually the same as industrial production engineering or even toolroom engineering, even if the particular part to be made might be extremely similar. In the production case, where large numbers of identical parts are likely to be wanted, it is a case of tooling up with the ideal equipment to do the job, or farming it out to someone who specialises in that sort of thing. In the toolroom case, it might be closer to the amateur situation, except that the machines available are likely to be of a wider variety and to a higher standard than the amateur can afford. Also the amateur undertakes a far wider range of work than is usual for any one worker in industry, he or she will do his own pattern making, in some cses the moulding and casting, then the machining and fitting, the boiler making, the painting, the woodworking…..und so weiter. In lieu of having the right equipment, the amateur will often pay in time, for instance by doing by handwork what industry would do on a specialised machine. Whether or not the standard reached is as high as might be reached under top professional conditions is immaterial, since the whole point is to have the pleasure of doing it oneself. And of course quite often the standard is such that the professionals can’t beleive the equipment it was done on.

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi There

I made some parts for the RAF Nimrod.

They were all done on a CNC mill. Everything was surfaced all over, nothing was flat,

There were no drawings, just a computer model.

 

I assume they took a part from a thirty year old Nimrod, put it into a computer measuring machine and made the model.

I doubt the original Nimrods were machined on CNC machines.

I said at the time that we were making brand new Nimrods that were 30 years old.

 

Perhaps that is why they destroyed them with JCBs?

 

The funny thing was, one of the components I spent about 4 weeks of nights on, when I came in one night the day shift chap said the bottom of these components was not flat so he had skimmed them. Four weeks work down the pan.

 

regards David

 

 

[Stewart HartParticipant @stewarthart90345]

Well I’d like to congratualte Donald on bringing the site alive I though it was dead on its feat, the number of post it was getting.

 

I don’t agree with the sentiment of his post we all have to learn, and as a time served toolmaker I’m still learning about this hobby, its all about getting the best out of your Kit even if it is cheep Chinese stuff.

 

Stew

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi There

I misposted.

What I should have said was we would never employ a toolmaker on production work as he would take 5 times as long as a production man to do the same amount of work.

regards David

 

[adyParticipant @ady]

Looks to me like the headstock has been offset for that big taper.

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Hi donald, you talk of Chinese machinery as if you know all of it, you don’t. 20 odd years ago I went looking for a lathe, I looked at Myford, then the price. Ithen looked at a Taiwanese lathe quite a bit bigger, and a class above the Myford in the oppinion of an engineering friend, price one third. I’ll admit that setting up a 300kg lathe on my own was a struggle compared to the Myford would have been. Perhaps the Chinese send all their c***p to UK, I have no qualifcations in engineering, I am registered as a nurse.

Show us some of your model engineering examples, you must have some good stuff.

Ian S C

[Donald WittmannParticipant @donaldwittmann92536]

John Stevenson,

If you read my post I said MORSE TAPER not a steep taper like your photo.

I have never had a problem finding a centre lathe job although I am equally at ease with CNC. as for bulls**t well you would know more about that than me.

I only joined the forum yesterday and have been constantly bombarded with flak.

If that’s what you get for speaking your mind then bring it on.

by the way your not Chinese are you?

Donald.

[adyParticipant @ady]

If you want a peek at what amateurs can do then I go here from time to time, it’s an aussie site.

 

http://modelenginenews.org/index.html

 

…amateur being a very broad term…personally speaking, from looking around that place, I aspire to become an amateur.

Edited By ady on 24/03/2011 10:26:41

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