Aircraft General Discussion

[Danny M2ZParticipant @dannym2z]

G'day all.

There is a big bushfire nearby. This bloke has been hard at it for quite a few hours – he just skims along the lake surface after sideslipping down from the hills. It's well over 100°F so plenty of boats on the lake as people try to cool down.

Predicted temps of over 107°F tomorrow so he might be busy.

I hope that the boats give him a wide berth as it would be tricky to pick a clear stretch of water.

Lake Hume, NSW-Vic border, Australia

* Danny M *

[Sam StonesParticipant @samstones42903]

Ah! Gotcha! – NSW not WA.

But still, I hope you are safe.

I had to convert to degrees C (41.7) to get a `feel' of it.

Any idea what percentage of the floats' volume is used for water?

Regards,

Sam

Pom ex Bolton

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

Found this on another forum. The funny in the last ten minutes raised a chuckle when I read his book years ago.

**LINK**

Hard to believe it's a quarter of a century since I saw its last flight at Mildenhall.

Regards Ian.

[Danny M2ZParticipant @dannym2z]

Had another visitor over the lake today – just thermalling along the ridge line of the hills with the engine quietly idling.

Looks like a fun sport.

* Danny M *

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

RE TSR2 – This 'painting' was displayed at Limoges airport a couple of years ago.
BobH

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

That big rectangular hatch just aft of the Navigator's position was for the on-board computer !!!! Probably had less computing power than an I-Phone, certainly less memory.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I can work out what the French means, but I don't get the joke…

Neil

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

Len P. Check the colour of the pilots helmet at the start, and the colour at the end !! Its a really good spoof video.
BobH

[JAParticipant @ja]

I note that it is 80 years since the first flight of the Spitfire. The BBC are showing a clip of a two seater version in flight. I have always thought that the second cockpit and canopy spoilt the lines of a beautiful aeroplane.

Why did the Spitfire have elliptical wings? They must have been considerably more difficult and costly to make than the simple tapered wings of the Hurricane and Mustang.

JA

[Sam StonesParticipant @samstones42903]

JA asks 

Why did the Spitfire have elliptical wings?

This seems like a valid explanation JA.

Regards,

Sam

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliptical_wing

 

Edited By Sam Stones on 05/03/2016 20:05:38

[JAParticipant @ja]

Posted by Sam Stones on 05/03/2016 20:04:37:

JA asks

Why did the Spitfire have elliptical wings?

This seems like a valid explanation JA.

Regards,

Sam

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliptical_wing

Edited By Sam Stones on 05/03/2016 20:05:38

That was the explanation I was given at tech when being taught about simple wing and aircraft aerodynamics. It struck me then, and still strikes me, as a complete load of rubbish.

As for the wikipedia entry, it is quite simply bad. Look at the references.

JA

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

Some Spitfires were produced with 'clipped' wing tips, this gave a very different square ended appearance to the wings. Apparently this mod improved low altitude handling (so I was told).

The Potteries Museum in Stoke on Trent has an example of this type.

[Bill PudneyParticipant @billpudney37759]

When the Spitfire was designed, the only way that RJM could get the required 8 machine guns in an efficient wing was to use a thin, elliptical wing. Apparently he wanted to use a very thin airfoil, to enable the highest speed. His Schneider Trophy experiences had demonstrated that a thin wing produced less drag.

The elliptical wing certainly did take a long time to build. Somewhere I read that a Spitfire took approximately 30% more labour hours to build than a Hurricane.

When the RAF High Speed Flight was formed towards the end of WW2, the Spitfire was selected as the aircraft to use as it had the best potential for high speed. No doubt the fact that the RAF had quite a lot of them helped!!

For my money the Spitfire was the most beautiful aircraft ever.

cheers

Bill

[Sam StonesParticipant @samstones42903]

Yep JA!

Serves me right for trying to be helpful.

Regards,

Sam

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by JA on 05/03/2016 22:17:32:

That was the explanation I was given at tech when being taught about simple wing and aircraft aerodynamics. It struck me then, and still strikes me, as a complete load of rubbish.

As for the wikipedia entry, it is quite simply bad. Look at the references.

JA

It may be wrong, but did Mitchell believe it?

I can't check the refs as they are all books..

This is interesting:

http://aerosociety.com/Assets/Docs/Publications/The%20Journal%20of%20Aeronautical%20History/2013-02_SpitfireWing-Ackroyd.pdf

Neil

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 06/03/2016 08:40:51

[JAParticipant @ja]

Thanks Bill and Neil for the article.

Thinking about it over the years I concluded the major reason must have been that it gave more room in the wing and perhaps the ability to move the guns slightly further outboard.

As for the cropped wing tips I guess this was done to increase the roll rate. This was a very common modification made to the big single engined aircraft raced at places like Reno. There was also modified Spitfire wing where the wing was extended to a point, probably to get more lift at altitude.

JA

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

I saw a documentary that said the clipped wing improved roll rates, so that backs up JA.

Martin

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

!

Neil

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

The elliptical wing of the Spitfire allowed a thick centre section to accommodate the undercarriage, and 4 x .303" machineguns. The wing had the advantage of its stalling characteristic, in that it stalled on the inboard end first, and the tip last which meant that the aircraft remained in control right to the last instant , this was important in tight turns in combat, the ME 109 if forced into tight turns in combat with the Spitfire would go into a high speed stall, and flick out, I believe that the ME 109 could be difficult to handle in these situations.

The Spitfire Vb with the cut of wing tips gave better handling at low altitude, and faster rate of roll below 20,000ft. These aircraft had bomb racks for either two 250lb, or one 500lb bombs, and with there canon armament were used for ground attack. they had about 4ft removed from the wing span. The ones with the extended wing tips were fitted with pressure cabins for use at extreme altitude, service ceiling of 42,000ft Compared to 36,000ft for a similar aircraft with standard wing span.

The Mustang got around the drag problem in a way that was not available to Mitchell in 1936, North American used a laminar flow aerofoil, and as long as the aircraft was clean(no bugs or mud), it worked well.

Ian S C

 

Edited By Ian S C on 07/03/2016 10:40:35

[JAParticipant @ja]

Posted by Ian S C on 07/03/2016 10:34:36:

The elliptical wing of the Spitfire allowed a thick centre section to accommodate the undercarriage, and 4 x .303" machineguns. The wing had the advantage of its stalling characteristic, in that it stalled on the inboard end first, and the tip last which meant that the aircraft remained in control right to the last instant , this was important in tight turns in combat, the ME 109 if forced into tight turns in combat with the Spitfire would go into a high speed stall, and flick out, I believe that the ME 109 could be difficult to handle in these situations.

Ian S C

Edited By Ian S C on 07/03/2016 10:40:35

The latest edition of The International Journal for the History of Engineering & Technology (used to be titled Transactions of the Newcomen Society) has an interesting article on German aircraft design during the Third Reich. One observation recorded, made in 1940, was that the Me109 cockpit was "too cramped for comfort". The pilot of a Spitfire had sufficient room to apply a side force of 60 lbf compared with an Me109 pilot who was limited to 40 lbf. This would give the Spitfire pilot a major advantage.

JA

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Both ME 109, and Spitfire pilots tended to get chosen because of their size (among other attributes). One of the Radar Stations Dad was on, was near an American base with Thunderbolts, there was also a squadron of Spitfires, and the Spitfire pilots reckoned the Thunderbolt pilots took evasive by running around in the cockpit.

Ian S C

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

One for the nostalgic armchair pilots….

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

Canadian Lancaster.

Have seen this flying numerous times, as my mother lives on its' usual flight path.

Canadian TV Star Rick Mercier had a ride in it last November, and there is stunning footage. Here is a link:

 

Hopefully it will come through ok. If not, search on Youtube for "RMR: Rick and the Lancaster" and you should find it. He's also done many other items, like CF-18, parachuting, and of course non-aircraft things.

 

JohnS.

Edited By John Alexander Stewart on 01/04/2016 01:39:14

[Peter KroghParticipant @peterkrogh76576]

A great opportunity to hear those Merlins and the damn idiots have got that stupid music!!! Grrrrrr.

Pete

[Anonymous]

I've just seen the first of the practises for the big air display at Duxford at the end of May – a couple of Mustangs practicing formation flying.

Andrew

[Author]

Posts