Advice on benchtop milling machine

[Martin LoweParticipant @martinlowe20701]

[Martin LoweParticipant @martinlowe20701]

Hi

Could anyone give me advice / comments on this 'problem'. I have a Richmond horizontal milling machine with a Halco 'universal' head (http://www.lathes.co.uk/bridgeport/page5.html) attached to the top arm. It is a heavy, 'industrial' machine with heavy knee / table, ie it doesn't move easily or vibrate when used! It's at least 70 years old and looks 'old fashioned' not 'shiny and new' but that's no problem as it is very good at removing large amounts of material and it can take large items eg cylinder heads. The 'problem' is that it is rather cumbersome when working on small items as the X / Y handles are quite large and quite a distance from the quill of the Halco head. I've been considering a couple of solutions to this and would welcome any advice / comments on them.

1 – Buy an small X / Y table to mount on the table of the Richmond. THis would allow me to work closer to the Halco head and make finer movements than I can with the richmond table. Obviously I'd lock up the X/Y slides on the Richmond table. I would need to use the Richmond knee for Z movement and the fine feed on the Halco for cut depth.

2 – Buy a smaller, benchtop milling machine. I have been looking at the Sieg SX3 / Warco WM 18 or GH 18 / Chester Champion 20VS or 30VS. I would mount this on a workbench and woudl be in addition to the Richmond and my drill press.

I know the best solution woudl be to sell the Richmond and buy a newer Bridgeport style milling machine but funds will not allow this and the height of a Bridgeport would be a problem in my 'workshop' shed.

I have a Chester Crusader lathe which I am very happy with and live in south Lancashire, not far away from the Chester 'shop' so can visit when I'm allowed.

Any advice/comments would be most welcome as I am getting more confused by the minute!

Thanks in anticipation

Martin

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

What type of tooling do you have? If it is R8, then be sure to get a machine that has that fitting to share your tools.

[Martin LoweParticipant @martinlowe20701]

Thank for the quick reply and a very goog point.

The Halco has #7 B&S taper and I use a MT2 Clarkson S type collet sytem with a taper adapter sleeve . Old hat I know but it's what it came with years ago.

I've thought about getting an ER32 collet system and will probably go for a MT2 for the Halco and if I need an R8 as well for a new machine then that's ok. I've got quite a few straightshank cutters as well as the threaded cutter for the Clarkson.

What I'd like to know is what others think of the pros and cons of either 'solution' and any comments on the new machines.

Thanks again

Martin

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

I believe you can get small benchtop machines with MT2, but should you go for R8, an R8 to MT2 adaptor using a smaller diameter drawbar works well. I have R8 to MT2 adaptors for drawbar and for tanged tools such as drill chucks.

ARC Eurotrade have lots of adaptors to look at, as well as milling machines.

Edited By old mart on 19/02/2021 16:04:02

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

I have a Champion V20 machine and I am very satisfied with it, I fitted digital readout on the X and Y axis, these I obtained from Allendale, were easy to fit and mean that you can forget backlash. I purchased the dedicated stand for the mill when I purchased it, not very stable a bit like being on a jelly , so I had to stiffen that up but you say you are mounting on a bench so no problem there. The only downside to the machine that I have found is that if you work the motor hard for prolonged periods in hot weather it gets very hot, I solved that by fitting two twelve volt computer fans in the motor shroud, this creates a steady through flow of cooling air and no more heat problems. If I had to buy another mill I wouldn’t hesitate to buy the same. Dave W

[Martin LoweParticipant @martinlowe20701]

Thanks for the advice, I have seen these adaptors but didn't know how well they'd work.. Good to know that from your experience they do. I have drill chucks with MT2 shanks, so I will be able to use those as well.

Great to get advice like this, I'm not entirely inexperienced but just use what tooling I have and it's good to get advice on areas that I know little about. I'm not a 'spring chicken' but always willing to learn from folk with more experience than me.

I take it you don't think much of my idea to use and X/Y table bolted to the Richmond table?

Thanks again

Martin

[Martin LoweParticipant @martinlowe20701]

Dave, thanks for your comments re the V20 and also the DRO – I've got one on the lathe and it's one of those things that I wouldn't be without now but I hadn't really thought about one for the mill. Good advice about the stand, even though I'll be bench mounting at present this may change in the future so I'll keep your advice in mind. Good idea re the fans, not something I'd have thought to do!

Thanks again

Martin

[Roger BestParticipant @rogerbest89007]

Small X/Y tables for very light use are available on ebay for very little money. They might do what you want.

Horses for courses always works, if you have the space and cash its bound to be OK.

[Martin LoweParticipant @martinlowe20701]

Roger, thanks for that information. I'd not thought of ebay for such things, I'll check up on there very soon. As you say, horses for courses.

Many Thanks

Martin

[Bob WorsleyParticipant @bobworsley31976]

It is a real machine and 70 years old, might be time to clean the slides? With real metal and fitting the slides should move without any real force needed. Also check that things that need lubricating, screws, slides etc are lubricated.

The knee is a different problem, they are always heavy to raise and lower, get a couple of gas struts to counterbalance the weight. Also, after 70 years the nut might be on its last legs, when they strip they cause some terrible accidents, well worth a look.

An old solid machine is worth its price in gold, you will really notice the lack of rigidity. You have it, with all the bits, don't even think of replacing it until checking the slides etc.

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Posted by Martin Lowe on 20/02/2021 09:59:38:

Roger, thanks for that information. I'd not thought of ebay for such things, I'll check up on there very soon. As you say, horses for courses.

Many Thanks

Martin

Please note the leadscrews are not graduated in any way and steals 4" of height. The postage on the Swiss ones is hilarious.

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

i had a large universal mill and a large turret mill, due to a impending house move i got rid of these mills then the move fel through and selling our home proved a bit difficult so three years laters we are still here, A neighbour gave me an 00 Omnimill. O how I miss those two big mills,with weight,rigidity and larger spindles,though I do agree that a turret mill with a 50 inch table does need an operator with long arms,I would go for a smaller x y axis sub table set up ,though try to get a good one with good slideways, with this set up you still have the larger rigid spindle plus the extra table capacity when needed,I often thought the ideal arrangement was the German style arrangement with the shorter but wider table set up (eg Deckel fp3) plus power feed in all directions though at near 80 I did start to find winding up the table got a bit daunting.I have often wondered why most full size turret mills have such a narrow 9 or 10 inch table,12 inches with 4 tee slots would be a better table width,for vertical milling.

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

i had a large universal mill and a large turret mill, due to a impending house move i got rid of these mills then the move fel through and selling our home proved a bit difficult so three years laters we are still here, A neighbour gave me an 00 Omnimill. O how I miss those two big mills,with weight,rigidity and larger spindles,though I do agree that a turret mill with a 50 inch table does need an operator with long arms,I would go for a smaller x y axis sub table set up ,though try to get a good one with good slideways, with this set up you still have the larger rigid spindle plus the extra table capacity when needed,I often thought the ideal arrangement was the German style arrangement with the shorter but wider table set up (eg Deckel fp3) plus power feed in all directions though at near 80 I did start to find winding up the table got a bit daunting.I have often wondered why most full size turret mills have such a narrow 9 or 10 inch table,12 inches with 4 tee slots would be a better table width,for vertical milling.

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

i had a large universal mill and a large turret mill, due to a impending house move i got rid of these mills then the move fel through and selling our home proved a bit difficult so three years laters we are still here, A neighbour gave me an 00 Omnimill. O how I miss those two big mills,with weight,rigidity and larger spindles,though I do agree that a turret mill with a 50 inch table does need an operator with long arms,I would go for a smaller x y axis sub table set up ,though try to get a good one with good slideways, with this set up you still have the larger rigid spindle plus the extra table capacity when needed,I often thought the ideal arrangement was the German style arrangement with the shorter but wider table set up (eg Deckel fp3) plus power feed in all directions though at near 80 I did start to find winding up the table got a bit daunting.I have often wondered why most full size turret mills have such a narrow 9 or 10 inch table,12 inches with 4 tee slots would be a better table width,for vertical milling.

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

i had a large universal mill and a large turret mill, due to a impending house move i got rid of these mills then the move fel through and selling our home proved a bit difficult so three years laters we are still here, A neighbour gave me an 00 Omnimill. O how I miss those two big mills,with weight,rigidity and larger spindles,though I do agree that a turret mill with a 50 inch table does need an operator with long arms,I would go for a smaller x y axis sub table set up ,though try to get a good one with good slideways, with this set up you still have the larger rigid spindle plus the extra table capacity when needed,I often thought the ideal arrangement was the German style arrangement with the shorter but wider table set up (eg Deckel fp3) plus power feed in all directions though at near 80 I did start to find winding up the table got a bit daunting.I have often wondered why most full size turret mills have such a narrow 9 or 10 inch table,12 inches with 4 tee slots would be a better table width,for vertical milling.

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

i had a large universal mill and a large turret mill, due to a impending house move i got rid of these mills then the move fel through and selling our home proved a bit difficult so three years laters we are still here, A neighbour gave me an 00 Omnimill. O how I miss those two big mills,with weight,rigidity and larger spindles,though I do agree that a turret mill with a 50 inch table does need an operator with long arms,I would go for a smaller x y axis sub table set up ,though try to get a good one with good slideways, with this set up you still have the larger rigid spindle plus the extra table capacity when needed,I often thought the ideal arrangement was the German style arrangement with the shorter but wider table set up (eg Deckel fp3) plus power feed in all directions though at near 80 I did start to find winding up the table got a bit daunting.I have often wondered why most full size turret mills have such a narrow 9 or 10 inch table,12 inches with 4 tee slots would be a better table width,for vertical milling.

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

i had a large universal mill and a large turret mill, due to a impending house move i got rid of these mills then the move fel through and selling our home proved a bit difficult so three years laters we are still here, A neighbour gave me an 00 Omnimill. O how I miss those two big mills,with weight,rigidity and larger spindles,though I do agree that a turret mill with a 50 inch table does need an operator with long arms,I would go for a smaller x y axis sub table set up ,though try to get a good one with good slideways, with this set up you still have the larger rigid spindle plus the extra table capacity when needed,I often thought the ideal arrangement was the German style arrangement with the shorter but wider table set up (eg Deckel fp3) plus power feed in all directions though at near 80 I did start to find winding up the table got a bit daunting.I have often wondered why most full size turret mills have such a narrow 9 or 10 inch table,12 inches with 4 tee slots would be a better table width,for vertical milling.

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

i had a large universal mill and a large turret mill, due to a impending house move i got rid of these mills then the move fel through and selling our home proved a bit difficult so three years laters we are still here, A neighbour gave me an 00 Omnimill. O how I miss those two big mills,with weight,rigidity and larger spindles,though I do agree that a turret mill with a 50 inch table does need an operator with long arms,I would go for a smaller x y axis sub table set up ,though try to get a good one with good slideways, with this set up you still have the larger rigid spindle plus the extra table capacity when needed,I often thought the ideal arrangement was the German style arrangement with the shorter but wider table set up (eg Deckel fp3) plus power feed in all directions though at near 80 I did start to find winding up the table got a bit daunting.I have often wondered why most full size turret mills have such a narrow 9 or 10 inch table,12 inches with 4 tee slots would be a better table width,for vertical milling.

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

i had a large universal mill and a large turret mill, due to a impending house move i got rid of these mills then the move fel through and selling our home proved a bit difficult so three years laters we are still here, A neighbour gave me an 00 Omnimill. O how I miss those two big mills,with weight,rigidity and larger spindles,though I do agree that a turret mill with a 50 inch table does need an operator with long arms,I would go for a smaller x y axis sub table set up ,though try to get a good one with good slideways, with this set up you still have the larger rigid spindle plus the extra table capacity when needed,I often thought the ideal arrangement was the German style arrangement with the shorter but wider table set up (eg Deckel fp3) plus power feed in all directions though at near 80 I did start to find winding up the table got a bit daunting.I have often wondered why most full size turret mills have such a narrow 9 or 10 inch table,12 inches with 4 tee slots would be a better table width,for vertical milling.

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

I think you made your point very well, Nigel !! Sticky fingers ?

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

What was that you said?

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Posted by Martin Lowe on 19/02/2021 16:12:28:

I take it you don't think much of my idea to use and X/Y table bolted to the Richmond table?

Martin

I don't think it's a completely silly idea Martin – well at least, it's something I considered at one time before I acquired smaller mill(s) to go with the big one.

Same problem I think (in that I wanted to mill some smaller parts) and the idea of being able to set up a secondary X/Y table (with Dial Gauges) was quite appealing simply for the reasons you mention – ease of operation. In the end, a Taig milling head (mounted on the end of my small lathe) solved that particular problem and avoided issues with the heavy knee, longish table and of course cutting speeds.

My mills are horizontals although both have vertical heads. The only drawback really is that neither have drilling quills – otherwise I'm fairly content with them. Long running debate (Horizontal vs Vertical) but most folk have verticals these days so no need to resurrect it here . Like most things, it's mostly about what you are used to.

I have since acquired a small but quite solidly built (Chinese) X/Y table although the dials provided are almost useless. This doesn't worry too much as I rig up dial gauges to measure absolute movement. It's only been used on my large drill press thus far though.

Regards,

IanT

[Martin LoweParticipant @martinlowe20701]

Thanks to everyone who's given their advice, good to get information from so many folk.

I have stripped the Richmond, cleaned / oiled the slides, set the gibs, replaced the thrust bearings on the X axis and it moves very smoothly – not an easy job lifting the table, cross slide and knee assembly tho', not something to do every week! The 'handle' for x axis is a crank lever (not a handwheel), so it's not very good for fine adjustment. Good to know that some folk have used a X/Y table on their milling table so may well go that route.

On the other hand, a smaller bench mill would be useful for accurate drilling as well as milling, so will probably go for one as well as the X/Y table. I'm getting quite confused as to which to go for in the £1300 – £1800 bracket and many suppliers are out of stock in this price/size range at present so there'll be plenty of time to decide. If anyone has any comments as to the pros and cons of the Sieg SX2 / SX3, Warco VM range, Chester Champion 20 / 30, I'd appreciate them very much. I will be putting a DRO set onto it as thinking about it one should be very useful on a milling machine

Thanks again

Martin

[Martin Hamilton 1Participant @martinhamilton1]

delete

Edited By Martin Hamilton 1 on 25/02/2021 18:59:35

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