Accuracy of cheap ER collets

[Ian Davidson 2Participant @iandavidson2]

Thanks George,

We sent the product back to you on 1^st September 2016. Thanks for posting both sides of the story. We are grateful. Just sorry to learn that you are still facing the same problem.

We are still happy to give you a refund for the item – excluding return carriage, provided it is un-marked, un-used, and returned in its original packaging, along with the spanner which was supplied.

We conducted the tests in the same way as George did, and here are the supporting videos.

 

This is a test conducted on MT2 SX1LP spindle, before fitting Georges MT2 ER25 Milling collet chuck to it. This has been done in the same way as George did on his 'another manufacturer' mill.

This is Georges MT2 ER25 Milling collet chuck as tested on our machine. Like Geoge, we used a 3/8” collet fitted with 3/8” round stock.

Ian at ARC.

 

Edited By JasonB on 07/09/2016 16:09:07

Edited By JasonB on 07/09/2016 16:24:18

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

You will never get anywhere with what you are trying to do Mech……….. unless you are prepared to think about it.

If not rather than worry about it's better to use it and see what happens. It would take about 10 seconds to see if a cutter is running out by 0.005" when it is approaching a surface that it has already machined.

John

–

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Is it possible you have a burr or bruise up inside the MT socket? That could misalign things although the spindle would still run true.

Neil

[mechman48Participant @mechman48]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 07/09/2016 14:43:58:

Is it possible you have a burr or bruise up inside the MT socket? That could misalign things although the spindle would still run true.

Neil

Have thought about that but I can only get my stubby little finger 'up the spout' to the first joint, & don't relish the thought of having to call emergency services to remove stuck finger. I have looked on line for Morse taper laps & so far have only come up with Morse taper wipers… & can't remember which site it was at the mo' … Aha a thought ! … I recently purchased a small spring brake cylinder hone to use for honing the cylinder on my S10V that's in progress, that will do up to a 3/4 ( 19 mm ) bore, & the large dia. of #2 MT is approx .700"… must investigate that avenue . what thinkest thou guys, sounds feasible to me …pity I haven't got a boroscope to look see up the spout.

George.

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

You could try a spot of Engineer's Blue on a good MT shank to see if there's a high spot on the spindle taper.

Martin.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

You could use ajohnw’s finger and get that stuck and it would then save us having to read all the keyboard diarrhoea.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Arnljot Seem on 07/09/2016 09:26:12:

The new chuck is from Vertex, and seem to be of reasonable quality. I have since discovered that a Regofix chuck come at the same price as Vertex. The collets are more expensive though.

The Vertex chuck seems to be of decent quality though. I'd like to hear if others have experience with them.

I think I will resolve this by returning the Vertex chuck, and order a Regofix and a smaller selection of Regofix collets. They are about €23-24 (£20 ish) a piece before sales tax.

Lesson learned: stay away from cheap Chinese junk, better to buy less tools of high named quality.

I would respectfully advise that your knowledge of Chinese manufacturing units is very limited. Based on your limited experience, to tar everything from China which is cheap, to be 'cheap Chinese junk' is incorrect.

We happen to buy ER products from the same Chinese factory as Vertex, which you happened to find reasonable. ER collets come in about three grades, all of which has been discussed so many times that the same old stuff gets repeated, again and again. in simple terms, these grades are: 1-Crap, 2-General – for manual machine use, and 3-High grade for CNC machine application. We sell the General grade. Howeever, makers and sellers use/abuse these classifications for the holders as well as the related collets.

Without naming names, some of the well known brands in the West also buy ER stuff from specific factories in China. You just have to take my word for it, or choose to believe otherwise. More than 60% of ER world consumption – good, bad and ugly comes out of China, followed by India, and from within Europe/the West to a small specialised extent.

Ketan at ARC.

[NJHParticipant @njh]

John Stevenson – you are a very naughty boy!

Norman

[Raymond AndersonParticipant @raymondanderson34407]

Oooooh thats a punch south the waistline that one . .

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by John Stevenson on 07/09/2016 16:01:14:
You could use ajohnw's finger and get that stuck and it would then save us having to read all the keyboard diarrhoea.

On the other hand if he and by the sounds of it you knew what they were doing there would probably be no need for this thread.

John

–

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

No need for a thread that cam go into 15 pages of theoretical physics and Google clips without one iota of practicality ? ?

.

.

Where’s the fun in that for the regulars on here ?

[mechman48Participant @mechman48]

FYI.

One of the tips that was suggested was from an article in MEW that I came across, but for the life of me cannot find it again, good job I printed it off, so have scanned & posted so it may be of interest/help to other members …

George.

[Raymond AndersonParticipant @raymondanderson34407]

Iv'e seen the ones with I think 6 screws around the face of the closer.  I'm not keen on them as they appear to "tilt " the collet and you get perfect run out at the tool tip, but because it tilts the collet it's not much use if you want to machine anything that needs a square shoulder. This one appears to shift the collet around it's center line which is far better than tilting it.

Edited By Raymond Anderson on 07/09/2016 18:31:18

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Well I got a bit curious and thought I would see what my far eastern offerings ran like but decided to be practical and use a dti rather than JohnW's theoretical finger.

I happened to have a 3/8" cutter in thee mill at the time so used the shank of that first and then tested the taper of the ER holder.

Facts

9yr old well used Sieg X3

ER32 x MT3 collet chuck 95% certain it came from ARC

Arc bearing nut, no torque measured just supplied spanner.

Super cheap Hong Kong $2 3/8" dia cutter

3/8" ER32 collet from ARC

0.0005" finger dti from ARC

No special cleaning or degreasing as the tool was in there from the weekend.

I'd say 0.0003" tir on the holders taper and 0.0004" on teh shank of the tool. That will do me as I doubt paying for super precision would mnakle my models run any better.

J

PS That's another £1 you owe me Ketan

 

Edited By JasonB on 08/09/2016 07:55:09

[Arnljot SeemParticipant @arnljotseem72268]

Posted by Ketan Swali on 07/09/2016 16:12:26:

I would respectfully advise that your knowledge of Chinese manufacturing units is very limited. Based on your limited experience, to tar everything from China which is cheap, to be 'cheap Chinese junk' is incorrect.

We happen to buy ER products from the same Chinese factory as Vertex, which you happened to find reasonable. ER collets come in about three grades, all of which has been discussed so many times that the same old stuff gets repeated, again and again. in simple terms, these grades are: 1-Crap, 2-General – for manual machine use, and 3-High grade for CNC machine application. We sell the General grade. Howeever, makers and sellers use/abuse these classifications for the holders as well as the related collets.

Without naming names, some of the well known brands in the West also buy ER stuff from specific factories in China. You just have to take my word for it, or choose to believe otherwise. More than 60% of ER world consumption – good, bad and ugly comes out of China, followed by India, and from within Europe/the West to a small specialised extent.

Ketan at ARC.

Yes, I have limited experience with milling and ER collets, but have long consumer experience with tools of all sorts. I have been working with cars and other mechanical installations for over 30 years as a hobby. My father owned an electronics factory that had a large machining department with many advanced milling and turning machines. I used to work there every summer from 12 to 24. I know what quality electronics and mechanical work looks and feels like. The ER collets I received, from I guess China (No manufacturer name, no country of origin), were in your first category, JUNK. The problem for me as a consumer is that I don't know what I get when I order a no-brand Chinese stuff from an online shop. I am sure you pick and chose the good stuff when you select your goods, but I don't know that when I place my first order. The Chinese have, unfortunately for their good manufacturers, worked up a reputation for making things cheap but not very good. Say Swiss, and I think high quality. Say Chinese, and I think cheap and mostly rubbish. There is a reason used machines, tools and tooling from Europe and America is so sought after and relatively expensive: quality. An old beat up bench vice from a known European manufacturer cost more than a brand new Chinese. My Myford Super 7 lathe was purchased by my dad for his factory in the late fifties, and still works great. It has been my platform for learning turning.

I have been burned too many times, and got fooled again. The collet set were €110 for 18 collets and Regofix are €150 for the six I need (now). I will probably use those collets in 30 years if I live that long… Of course I willingly buy Chinese goods (at the expense of the European worker) many times. Sometimes its good enough for what I am doing, and I don't need to use it much. Many times I have to dump it, and fork out the money for a quality piece.

Sorry for the rant, I have nothing against ARC and the goods you sell, I am a customer and will return. It's just that our crave for cheap stuff has become a disease that is ruining our economy and the planet. My parents had stuff that lasted a lifetime. Today we fill our homes with junk that lasts a couple of years at best. It costs nothing, so nothing gets repaired. I find great pleasure in restoring and improving quality objects like my Myford from the fifties and my Schaublin from the seventies. Btw, my cars ar older quality cars as well.

Arnljot (an old fart that thinks everything was better before

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Please relax Mr.Seem,

The issues are complex in the e-commerce world. Much faster then the good ol days. We face the same music with good, bad, ugly, competition too. Just depends on which rose tinted glasses each one of us chooses to wear.

Ketan at ARC

[Enough!Participant @enough]

Posted by JasonB on 07/09/2016 18:30:13:

9yr old well used Sieg X3
ER32 x MT3 collet chuck 95% certain it came from ARC
Arc bearing nut
Super cheap Hong Kong $2 3/8" dia cutter
3/8" ER32 collet from ARC
0.0005" finger dti from ARC
No special cleaning or degreasing as the tool was in there from the weekend.

Torque on the collet nut?

The only reason I mention this Jason is that, as discussed in a thread here many moons ago, the manufacturer recommend/specified torque for ER collet nuts bears little relation to what MEs are likely to use (the recommendations are way, way higher). I certainly don't use those torques – couldn't if I tried – nor do I measure the torque I use, but if they truly do affect the runout, then much of the discussion here is probably moot.

I also read the MEW article, when it was published, that George posted above. It was interesting but without any mention of the torque (or even any noted attempt at consistency) I'm not sure how valuable the results were.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

One point to note here on Vertex gear.

Vertex are NOT a manufacturer, they buy and badge engineer from different companies.

Granted that unlike Soba in India who buy the cheapest possible and change suppliers just to save a rupee, Vertex does have a workable quality control but as Ketan says they can also buy from the same factory that any of the reputable UK suppliers buy from.

[Arnljot SeemParticipant @arnljotseem72268]

Posted by Ketan Swali on 07/09/2016 20:31:51:

Please relax Mr.Seem,

The issues are complex in the e-commerce world. Much faster then the good ol days. We face the same music with good, bad, ugly, competition too. Just depends on which rose tinted glasses each one of us chooses to wear.

Ketan at ARC

[sparky mikeParticipant @sparkymike]

Re Chinese tools ect.

The Chinese are getting better at quality products all the time, but at times they lack good old fitting skills. I have bought many Chinese products in the past ,but often find various screws/bolts loose and now I will check a bought item first before use. As for Indian produed items, I avoid them like the plague. Very much a lottery if you will get a good product ,or not ,out of a batch. Recently a good friend bought a large consignment of classic car bumper over-riders from India and he ended up scrapping the lot. Welding was very bad and there were hammer marks all over the outer surface. I don't think the Indian workers have the right sort of commitment to the job.

Mike.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Bandersnatch on 07/09/2016 23:14:42:

Posted by JasonB on 07/09/2016 18:30:13:

9yr old well used Sieg X3
ER32 x MT3 collet chuck 95% certain it came from ARC
Arc bearing nut
Super cheap Hong Kong $2 3/8" dia cutter
3/8" ER32 collet from ARC
0.0005" finger dti from ARC
No special cleaning or degreasing as the tool was in there from the weekend.

Torque on the collet nut?

Unmeasured, just what I usually do by hand with the supplied C spanner and a slightly shorter length spanner on the flats of the holder. I doubt it is approaching reccomended tightnesses, certainly nothing like the force you can see being used in those couple of videos in the "pros & cons of ER system" thread.

[Danny M2ZParticipant @dannym2z]

Posted by sparky mike on 08/09/2016 06:41:15:

Re Chinese tools ect.

The Chinese are getting better at quality products all the time, but at times they lack good old fitting skills.

The Chinese are capable of producing high quality products, no doubt about that. When my friend recently visited Shanghai he told me that he could have whatever level of quality control that he was prepared to pay for.

The end-price would be affected though, so he was considering whether it is worthwhile to send his own people to liase (Q.C. inspectors) but he sensed that the locals might be a bit offended by this suggestion.

He is now checking out some manufacturing facilities in Eastern Europe, but their prices are increasing steadily and some of the manufacturing plant is getting a bit long in the tooth (his comments).

At the end of the day, my ER 25 collets (of Chinese origin) are perfectly acceptable and accurate enough for day-to-day work. I did purchase them from a local supplier so that I had some come-back if they were defective.

I could have purchased them slightly cheaper from fleabay but then it's a bit of a lottery with zero support. Nowhere near what ARC gave to our intrepid customer.

* Danny M *

p.s. It is going to be interesting to find out what the eventual problem was.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Personally I doubt Torque has a major impact on ER collet accuracy. You can feel when it goes solid with 'workshop-level' forces and any torque past that is then pre-loading the assemble rather than shifting anything, especially with a ball bearing nut.

In practice if the preload exceeds the forces generated by cutting, teh cutter won't shift and the 'recommended' forces assume industrial feeds and speeds

Neil

[mechman48Participant @mechman48]

Posted by Danny M2Z on 08/09/2016 08:23:49:

Posted by sparky mike on 08/09/2016 06:41:15:

Re Chinese tools ect.

…. At the end of the day, my ER 25 collets (of Chinese origin) are perfectly acceptable and accurate enough for day-to-day work. I did purchase them from a local supplier so that I had some come-back if they were defective.

I could have purchased them slightly cheaper from fleabay but then it's a bit of a lottery with zero support. Nowhere near what ARC gave to our intrepid customer.

* Danny M *

p.s. It is going to be interesting to find out what the eventual problem was.

I will post results as & when problem sorted…

George.

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