A Lathe Bible Book

[steve whedonParticipant @stevewhedon36834]

As a "small lathe" beginner, I have probably read more books on lathe and milling than actually using the machines – probably my scientific background (previous work, methodology, experiment, analysis, report) – but I digress. I have finally found a book that somehow gives me the information I can appreciate and carry forward. The book is "Using the Small Lathe – by L.C. Mason" published in 1963 (2nd edition in 1969 – always a good sign – not many technical books go to 2nd editions). I got it from abebooks for £2. Its just so "hands-on" – e.g.quote "Lots of engineers reference books give tables of cutting speeds for various metals. You can turn over quickly – they don't apply to you and me. In home workshop machining you can only go by the feel, sound and appearance of the job".

[steve whedonParticipant @stevewhedon36834]

[Ian Collett 1Participant @iancollett1]

Many thanks for the recommend, my order has just been placed with AbeBooks although the price has gone up, now it's £2.69 for the 1969 edition (cover price 8/6), condition Used/Good (AbeBooks are amazing!). Fortunately this copy is from a different vendor than the four books I ordered the other day, so I haven't missed out on bundling my postage costs –
I'm awaiting delivery of:
Stan Bray, Introducing the Lathe
Tubal Cain, Model Engineers Handbook
Stan Bray, Introducing Bench Work (Model Engineering Guide)
R Sandham and FR Willmore, Metalwork

I'm 'armchair engineering' at the moment as I'm finishing off (hopefully) quite a large house modernisation with the separate 16'x8' garage earmarked as my workshop. I am also looking for texts that can help me understand the terminology that is completely mystifying to a beginner who hasn't touched a metal working machine since 'O' Level Workshop Theory and Practice, 1976.

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Workshop Technology by WAJ Chapman is another interesting tome from the last century. Dr Chapman was toolroom trained and after a career in industry became a lecturer at Hatfield Tech (now called University of Herts). IIRC, parts 1 and 2 were published in the 40s and 50s but provide coverage of a lot of stuff you need for the workshop. Good if you can find a copy somewhere.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Chapman's Senior Workshop Calculations is worth downloading for free.

MichaelG.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Not sure how things are with pdf's but I usually download djvu's – they can be searched even though they are scanned. Saves a lot of time and they also take up less space for the same or even better quality.

John

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[DMBParticipant @dmb]

Sourcing WAJ Chapmans books; try the likes of AB Books to purchase 2nd hand or ask your local library to obtain copies for you to borrow which you could then scan interesting bits into your `puter. If library has to send away for them, they will have to charge you for a proportion of the postage cost.

HTH.

John

[GeorgineerParticipant @georgineer]

It's worth noting that Chapman was in Imperial units until the fourth edition, and in SI units from the fifth edition (1971). I find them both useful.

George

[Ian Collett 1Participant @iancollett1]

Many thanks everyone for the heads-up

**LINK**

Excellent, £2.10 for all three parts! As is often the case the postage is more than the book, but as all three are available from the same vendor the postage cost could reduce significantly. All are post '71 (thanks Georgineer) so they are in SI units.

I'll put these on my 'to get' list, even at these prices the missus will have something to say about the house filling up with dog-eared old library books, of which I already have quite a few.

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Picked up a book with some useful basic stuff at last years church fair, some of you may remember it "Metal Work for Technical & High School Students" by A. L. Hughes, late Head Teacher of metal work, Central Technical School, Newcastle.

Ian S C

[Mick HenshallParticipant @mickhenshall99321]

I have a copý of "How to run a lathe" by Southbend Indianna 46623, 1966 revised edition which I think is one of the best books out there, also some US Navy manuals on milling/shaping etc

Mick

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by steve whedon on 16/05/2015 09:27:01:

I have finally found a book that somehow gives me the information I can appreciate and carry forward. The book is "Using the Small Lathe – by L.C. Mason" published in 1963 (2nd edition in 1969 – always a good sign – not many technical books go to 2nd editions). I got it from abebooks for £2. Its just so "hands-on" – e.g.quote "Lots of engineers reference books give tables of cutting speeds for various metals. You can turn over quickly – they don't apply to you and me. In home workshop machining you can only go by the feel, sound and appearance of the job".

Probably the best quote which applies to this hobby. It would be good if more writers followed this concept.

Ketan at ARC.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Ketan

The cutting speeds quoted for the various tool materials do have one interesting factor for a beginner. If you run faster you wont get the reasonable tool life who ever generated the tables assumed. You'll get less. Run slower and you will get more. Which removes most metal before the tools wears out is debatable. Depth of cut has much more bearing on that as does feed rate.

Some of the tables are crazy really. What tool steel is the tool made of, what grade of carbide/what coating/what tip geometry. HSS is even worse. For instance M2 is plain HSS then there are 2 main grades off added cobalt usually 5% and 10%. The 10% is produces because it's more capable of the very fine cutting edge lasting at red heat – not that anyone really uses it like that but it can take higher cutting speed than M2. There are other variants as well. I tend to favour 5%. A lot of retailers don't even mention what grade it is.

It's all more like the quote really but I would add the job and also the lathe that the work is being done on. Some will take much bigger cuts than others. Some are more rigid and etc. The job itself can vary enormously.

Curiously the various cutter angles also relate to tool life. They aren't gospel. They mostly relate to an assumed strength of the cutting edge that will be needed for the material that is being cut. Brass is an odd ball but there has been loads of suggestions on the best way to handle that. Many are best disregarded. Some one who wants to remove lots of material might seriously depart from from the tables and say ok I don't care if the tool blunts more quickly. Some carbide tip angles are just down to the nature of carbide itself. There isn't much scope for varying clearance angles on that.

There is another "book" that goes though basics that's free. Some of the tables in this one cover likely ranges neglecting complications.

**LINK**

It's more or less a copy of a book Southbend produced.

It mentions tool above centre turning. Probably best avoided until some on has a better understanding of what that does – in a nutshell is gives the tool more of a slicing action but also introduces an error when specific depths of cut are taken.

The cutter angles mentioned are too precise so people should try playing around with these. Unfortunately what none of the books I am aware do is explain what the various angles actually do. A pity really as they have very distinct effects on the behaviour of the tool and the effects on the material being cut.

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 03/01/2016 00:38:53

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

I started work in 1958,and Chapmans workshop technology 1,2, and 3 plus the maths books were the standard books for the city and guilds exams, and a number of other books mentioned above were written around this time,I do not recall anyone talking about various grades of HSS ,the stores issued toolbits ,most were Eclipse,larger tools usually HSS butt welded to forged shanks,and that was that.They were adequate,probably in industries which worked on exotic tough materials better grades of HSS were available at a price,though carbide tools were becoming more common. Tables on speeds ,feeds, cutting angles etc appear to be based on the most economic way of producing a certain size batch of components (discussed in Cicinatties book on milling) and should only be taken as a guide, though the golden rule is do not exceed the recommended surface speed for the specified material. I had a lathe since I was 18 and until I took early retirement my turning at home was done using toolbits I acquired during my apprentice ship. plus some others which were given to me. All were perfectly adequate for use on the S7, Since then I acquired a lot of HSS toolbits which were marked with various grades/compositions,some are a lot tougher and harder to grind, but I still do not choose particular grades to use on specific jobs as I do not do large batch runs on my master and triumph.If I do get a paying job then I use a mixture of HSS and carbide to make the economic for the customer. Unfortuneatly the demise of industry,night schools,decent apprenticeships has led to generation or enthusiasts who have received no training, and appear to have little patience as all they seem to want is to do is machine parts in the quickest time imaginable and get into all sorts of trouble,

[LambtonParticipant @lambton]

"Lots of engineers reference books give tables of cutting speeds for various metals. You can turn over quickly – they don't apply to you and me."

Absolutely correct. Most of these tables were developed during WW2 when maximum production rates were vital to the war effort. The machines used were very rigidly made Ward and Herbert capstan lathes both of which had enormous headstock bearings and slideways etc. Just use the speeds and feeds that your particular machine and job are "happy with" and ignore these tables.

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Metal Turning In The Lathe by David A Clark and no, I don't get more money if more copies are sold.

[Gary WoodingParticipant @garywooding25363]

Posted by Ajohnw on 01/01/2016 20:54:23:

Not sure how things are with pdf's but I usually download djvu's – they can be searched even though they are scanned. Saves a lot of time and they also take up less space for the same or even better quality.

John

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OK, I'll buy it, what's a djvu and how would you download such a format from Internet Archive?

[The Merry MillerParticipant @themerrymiller]

DjVU is a reader only that you can download from the net.

I use it for looking at files, mainly family tree census files that have been downloaded and can only be read using DjVU.

Happy New Year to all.

Len. P.

[Johnboy25Participant @johnboy25]

What about 'Know your Lathe  A screw cutting Lathe Manual' ? It's got lots of useful tips using the Boxford lathes as the featured machine.

John

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Both John W with his comments about tool material, angles etc., and Nigel with reference to demise of industry, night schools, make valid points.

From what I can see, beginners come into this hobby with various levels of skill, patience, enthusiasm, and budgets. From my sales experience, the ones with little patience are fortunately in the minority, and they quickly move on to doing something else, or they learn the hard way.

The point of my earlier comment is, that I hope that book writers of new take into account beginners with hobby machines, when addressing the issues being raised, as suggested by the quote, rather than printing generic charts.

A few days ago, I took delivery of samples of a simple new lathe tool I had been designing (where the word designing is a loose term for figuring out angles of rake, shape, size etc.). I had taken into account the material composition of the tool bit, and the angles, as suggested by John W, and came up with a compromise result based on certain conventions. In the design process, I had checked plenty of internet resources, referred to various books – to include Harolds book on tool and cutter sharpening (good general reference). Debated the pros and cons of the tool bit with JS, a Chinese engineer who added a small change to the angle, and then the chap who carries out the making process, who corrected a mistake which I had failed to see. So, the resulting sample came back for testing.

Put the tool bit in a new tool holder for the mini-lathe which will be introduced later this month and tested on 25mm diameter bar stock I had acquired from Chronos for aluminium, brass, free cutting steel, and cast iron. Then referred to the original Myford chart I had acquired from one of the Myfords open days in Nottingham, for feeds and information on if to use coolant or not (thinking like a beginner). Results (using like a beginner): the tool bit worked – even though it was a compromise on shape, rake, angles, on all four bar stocks. The M2 material behaved in a slightly different manner to M35, where the bit made from M35 felt different in use, and the cut was a little better. This test was carried out on a brushless motor – SC3 mini-lathe, and to achieve the results, I had to reduce the Myford charted speeds by about 15%.

Just after finishing the tests I read this post, so felt that 'the quote' made in the opening post was very relevant. One could argue that the user should grind his own shape on a tool bit. But as pointed out, some beginners want quick results, but for variable reasons. Most beginners of new have limited or no experience, so there need to be creative ways of keeping them interested, and hopefully they will discover new ways to do what they want as their interests develop. As it is, they have limited time to learn, if they are in full time employment.

I know that the post is a little off topic, and if the moderators wish to remove it or move it into a new post, thats okay.

Ketan at ARC.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by Gary Wooding on 03/01/2016 10:55:41:

Posted by Ajohnw on 01/01/2016 20:54:23:

Not sure how things are with pdf's but I usually download djvu's – they can be searched even though they are scanned. Saves a lot of time and they also take up less space for the same or even better quality.

John

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OK, I'll buy it, what's a djvu and how would you download such a format from Internet Archive?

Click on on show all formats and it will be there.

djvu was designed up front on an OCR basis. Actually I think that the full package is pretty cheap but I haven't much interest in that. I have used the reader for a long time. They have messed about with the look and feel of the version I use. The earlier one didn't show any navigation facilities at all but they popped up as soon as the mouse went over that area. Now it's permanently on view at the top. It works on pages as well which can cause some confusion. An arrow to change page or I assume the page key on the keyboard.

PDF has a mottled history. I think you will find Unix Ghostscript pre dates it and that is what it's based on and then there is postscript which in essence is a language aimed at telling a printer what to do in a rather textural fashion.

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 03/01/2016 17:30:23

[Ian Collett 1Participant @iancollett1]

From the comments above, and speaking as a total newbie, it would appear that some of the technical data contained in the textbooks in question perhaps don't apply too well to the modern equipment and materials now available?

However, I think for an absolute beginner my first thoughts on looking at a book on a new subject, particularly one involving fast rotating bits of heavy metal, are:

1. Safe operation, good habits to develop and which to avoid – I take it those haven't changed significantly over the decades?
2. Everyday terminology, a language primer if you will. I won't call it jargon, it isn't that, but these are tools that have specific names for parts, configurations and operations; and those names need to be learnt if I'm to communicate successfully when I have a problem or need guidance from those with more experience than I am ever likely to have
3. Capabilities and limitations concerning the tasks I intend to complete – primarily but not exclusively 7mm/ft locomotive and rolling stock construction in brass, nickel silver and steel

[Author]

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