Lathe unwanted taper

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Lathe unwanted taper

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  • #326124
    ChrisB
    Participant
      @chrisb35596

      So I recently noticed (when I was turning a piece of long alu ) that the lathe is turning tapers. Had not noticed this before as most of the work I did was short and did not require any precise dimensions.

      Over a length of 200mm I got a 0.2mm taper (wide end at the headstock side) – could not believe my eyes! Reasoning that its a new lathe so this should not be wear related I turned my attention to it's leveling.

      Can I level it without a precision engineer level? I don't have one and don't feel like spending for something you seldom use…might try to build one myself!

      Chris

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      #8963
      ChrisB
      Participant
        @chrisb35596

        Lathe turning a taper

        #326125
        john carruthers
        Participant
          @johncarruthers46255

          Is it supported with the tailstock?
          If so does the tailstock need adjusting?
          You don't sat what diameter ally you are turning? could be deflection.

          #326126
          JasonB
          Moderator
            @jasonb

            Did you use the tailstock for support?

            Has the tailstock beed adjusted front/back to make sure it is lined up correctly? having that rope tied round it may not have helped

            Edited By JasonB on 09/11/2017 07:45:33

            #326129
            jimmy b
            Participant
              @jimmyb

              If its not down to the tailstock being wrong, I'd be looking at the headstock not being inline.

              I had that trouble on a couple of new lathes.

              Good luck sorting it out

              Jim

              #326131
              ChrisB
              Participant
                @chrisb35596
                Posted by JasonB on 09/11/2017 07:43:45:
                having that rope tied round it may not have helped Edited By JasonB on 09/11/2017 07:45:33

                Nah, should not have done much as the weight was being taken by the strap near the headstock, the rope at the tailstock was just keeping balance – that said, tailstock might need aligning anyway.

                I am using a 20mm dia round alu bar protruding by 200mm, taking very,very light cuts, unsupported at the tailstock end. Still getting 0.2mm taper.

                #326132
                jimmy b
                Participant
                  @jimmyb

                  I've just re-read the the first post, do you mean the big end is at the chuck??

                  Jim

                  #326133
                  not done it yet
                  Participant
                    @notdoneityet

                    John gives good advice.

                    Regarding level, the lathe could be at 45 degrees as long as the bed is 'level' from one end to the other!

                    If the bed were true and flat and level, the lathe should turn without taper – but conversely, if the lathe cuts without a taper, the bed should be true (even if not quite level in the absolute sense) This means that shimming of the tailstock end, to remove any taper cutting should level the bed.

                    Obviously, levelling the lathe initially is a good ploy, but things like the floor or bench/stand top can also introduce extra levelling requirements. I expect that shimming the tailstock end (if the the root cause of the problem is pinned down to a slight twist of the bed) would be more than adequate for our small lathes.

                    #326136
                    Speedy Builder5
                    Participant
                      @speedybuilder5

                      200 mm of 20 mm bar – That would deflect by that amount if you applied 1/2 a Kg on the end of the bar, so it is likely that it would whip/ bend whilst you were turning it. You say light cuts, but the tool still loads the end of the bar. An accurately aligned tailstock and centre was the way to go.
                      BobH

                      #326140
                      Hopper
                      Participant
                        @hopper

                        I would try your test again with a piece of 25mm diameter steel protruding 150mm out of the chuck. Just to make sure the problem is not deflection of the long thin piece of bendy aluminium before you start attacking your new machine tool

                        I would also check the tightness of the headstock bearings because if they are loose it can cause taper turning. With a newish lathe they might need adjusting after initial bedding in.

                        And check for burrs on the ways and slack in the carriage and cross slide ways.

                        Then slacken off all the foot mounting bolts where the lathe bolts to the bench. Try sliding a thin feeler gauge under each foot. If there is any gap at any foot, a piece of shim needs to be slid in there to take up the gap. Otherwise, you are pulling the bed out of shape when you cinch down the mounting bolts.

                        After all that, if still turning a taper, you may need to first "level" the bed using a precision level to make sure there is no twist along it.

                        Then, if it still turns a taper, you can go two ways. Either twist the bed by adding shims under one or other of the tailstock end mounting feet until the lathe turns true. This method is an ok bodge for small taper errors. Probably not for 0.2mm though. The more properer way would be to set the alignment of the headstock to the leveled bed so that it turns parallel.

                         

                        Edited By Hopper on 09/11/2017 08:28:58

                        #326141
                        David George 1
                        Participant
                          @davidgeorge1

                          Hi Chris you should check the alignment of the headstock. If you have a test bar which fits into the headstock taper that is best but if not use something like a 20 mm diameter silver steel held in a 4 jaw chuck and clocked up to run true both ends. Then with the clock attached to the saddle and set at centre height traverse it left and right seeing if it is true, repeat it with the clock on the top of the bar and see if there is a rise and fall. There may be adjustment you can make to align it.

                          David

                          #326146
                          Russell Eberhardt
                          Participant
                            @russelleberhardt48058
                            Posted by Speedy Builder5 on 09/11/2017 08:08:40:

                            200 mm of 20 mm bar – That would deflect by that amount if you applied 1/2 a Kg on the end of the bar, so it is likely that it would whip/ bend whilst you were turning it. You say light cuts, but the tool still loads the end of the bar. An accurately aligned tailstock and centre was the way to go.
                            BobH

                            +1

                            Russell

                            #326151
                            Lambton
                            Participant
                              @lambton

                              Use a travelling steady!

                              #326156
                              SillyOldDuffer
                              Moderator
                                @sillyoldduffer
                                Posted by JasonB on 09/11/2017 07:43:45:

                                Did you use the tailstock for support?

                                Has the tailstock beed adjusted front/back to make sure it is lined up correctly? having that rope tied round it may not have helped

                                Edited By JasonB on 09/11/2017 07:45:33

                                Assuming Chris used the tailstock to support his rod, Jason may be on to something. I found the balance point on my WM280 to be much closer to the headstock. To position the strap at the balance point I had to remove the chuck guard (one bolt and it slides off a spindle). That rope in Chris' picture would pull the tailstock, possibly enough to shift it's alignment.

                                If Chris didn't use the tailstock to support the end of the rod, then deflection might well be causing the taper. Rods bend, even under their own weight! It's instructive to experiment with various diameters and lengths in the chuck. With a DTI on the far end of the work, pushing the rod's end with a finger will cause the DTI to register a deflection. You may be surprised at how much spring there is in a hefty lump of steel!

                                Dave

                                #326168
                                ChrisB
                                Participant
                                  @chrisb35596

                                  Thanks for all the replies, I spent most of this morning in the workshop adjusting bench feet and doing some test cuts on the lathe, also knocked out a spirit level out of some scrap I had around and a test tube – surprisingly it turned out much more accurate than a normal level, but takes time to read a the bubble is slow moving.

                                  Anyway, so I leveled the bench as best I could, then loosened all 6 lathe mounting bolts and did some test cuts, taper reduced to 0.1mm, next I tightened two diagonally opposite mounts, one at the tailstock near side, and one at the headstock far side – took a test cut again, now taper is down to 0.02mm…much better but now tailstock is off. Did all remaining attachment bolts, but did not tighten them up, just snugged them. Checked the bed for level, the tailstock end is almost spot on, the headstock end is slightly off, good enough for now.

                                  I'll call it a day for now as I'm on afternoon shift – will try again tomorrow with a piece of steel taking some of the advice posted and see how it goes.

                                  Edited By ChrisB on 09/11/2017 10:41:08

                                  #326183
                                  MW
                                  Participant
                                    @mw27036

                                    I don't know what the experts think but the picture shown seems to imply that having the lathe a little closer to the ground might do a world of good. yes

                                    Michael W

                                    #326204
                                    David Standing 1
                                    Participant
                                      @davidstanding1
                                      Posted by Michael-w on 09/11/2017 11:34:08:

                                      I don't know what the experts think but the picture shown seems to imply that having the lathe a little closer to the ground might do a world of good. yes

                                      Michael W

                                      Were you not aware that Chris is 8' 4" tall? wink 2

                                      #326207
                                      jimmy b
                                      Participant
                                        @jimmyb
                                        Posted by Michael-w on 09/11/2017 11:34:08:

                                        I don't know what the experts think but the picture shown seems to imply that having the lathe a little closer to the ground might do a world of good. yes

                                        Michael W

                                        laugh

                                        #326210
                                        Tim Stevens
                                        Participant
                                          @timstevens64731

                                          I wonder if you are anywhere near Mid Wales, Chris? If so, I can lend you an M&W level which I have used for exactly this job recently. I am half way between Hereford and Shrewsbury, and about on a level with Ludlow.

                                          Regards, Tim – 01547 529946

                                          #326217
                                          not done it yet
                                          Participant
                                            @notdoneityet

                                            Tim,

                                            Not unless Malta (or Wales) has moved!

                                            #326219
                                            Tim Stevens
                                            Participant
                                              @timstevens64731

                                              ndiy says: Not unless Malta (or Wales) has moved!

                                              A good case for ever closer union, I say !

                                              Tim

                                              #326305
                                              ChrisB
                                              Participant
                                                @chrisb35596
                                                Posted by jimmy b on 09/11/2017 07:58:18:

                                                I've just re-read the the first post, do you mean the big end is at the chuck??

                                                Jim

                                                Yes chuck side is turning larger.

                                                Posted by David Standing 1 on 09/11/2017 13:25:53:

                                                Posted by Michael-w on 09/11/2017 11:34:08:

                                                I don't know what the experts think but the picture shown seems to imply that having the lathe a little closer to the ground might do a world of good. yes

                                                Michael W

                                                Were you not aware that Chris is 8' 4" tall? wink 2

                                                That's right, and getting taller, thats why I left it on a hoist!

                                                Jokes apart, Jason copied that pic from one of my previous threads…it is now safely bolted to a bench

                                                Posted by Tim Stevens on 09/11/2017 14:49:16:

                                                I wonder if you are anywhere near Mid Wales, Chris? If so, I can lend you an M&W level which I have used for exactly this job recently. I am half way between Hereford and Shrewsbury, and about on a level with Ludlow.

                                                Regards, Tim – 01547 529946

                                                Thanks for the offer Tim, much appreciated, but as Ndiy said last time I checked Malta was still surrounded by the sea smile p

                                                On the subject of levels, I managed to knock out a simple spirit level which is pretty accurate and repeatable, used scrap pieces I had and a glass tube. Bowed the tube slightly with a set screw, works a treat and cost me nothing!

                                                #326416
                                                peak4
                                                Participant
                                                  @peak4

                                                  I appreciate that the problem is well on the way to being solved, and a little more shimming and tightening should see everything running true, but I wonder about the comments regarding workpiece flex.

                                                  Surely if the fat end of the taper is at the headstock, then it's not a flexing issue; if the workpiece was flexing away from the cutting tool, then the taper would be of largest diameter at the tailstock end, (or am I missing the blindingly obvious again)

                                                  Bill

                                                  #326417
                                                  SillyOldDuffer
                                                  Moderator
                                                    @sillyoldduffer
                                                    Posted by peak4 on 10/11/2017 11:06:48:

                                                    Surely if the fat end of the taper is at the headstock, then it's not a flexing issue; if the workpiece was flexing away from the cutting tool, then the taper would be of largest diameter at the tailstock end, (or am I missing the blindingly obvious again)

                                                    Bill

                                                    Well spotted! I'm one of several who missed the blindly obvious…

                                                    #326427
                                                    Hopper
                                                    Participant
                                                      @hopper
                                                      Posted by peak4 on 10/11/2017 11:06:48:

                                                      Surely if the fat end of the taper is at the headstock, then it's not a flexing issue; if the workpiece was flexing away from the cutting tool, then the taper would be of largest diameter at the tailstock end, (or am I missing the blindingly obvious again)

                                                      Bill

                                                      Depends, If the tool has back rake with a soft metal like aluminium it might be pulling the job toward the tool rather than pushing it away. Depends too on if the tool is slightly above or below centre.

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