Thanks for the info, but they are all parallel shank drills, they tend to move and flex about too much, ive got hundreds of those type, the ones I'm looking for have a 3.175 shank and the drill part is about 25mm long and 2mm in diameter, the shorter type work much better, I cant understand why its so difficult to find these in the UK, but there are plenty of the Chinese rubbish around, use one and throw it away, I'm drilling 3000 precision 2mm holes on cnc so it needs to be right