In industry, education, or private? The answer will be different for each and will prove irrelevant here 😀

Back in the early sixties I used a Colchester at school, possibly starting from the age of 11. The law has changed so much since, health and safety is the watchword.

About three years ago a pair of nice young ladies from the councils health and safety visited the museum. They had no idea whatsoever about uranium, radium, thorium and tritium being present in old aircraft,and when they saw the lathe, drill and mill, they didn't have a clue. They said they would be back, but no sign of h&s since.

I put the useless chuck guard on the drill and one on the lathe with a microswitch interlock. The lathe chuck guard has been a boon as I can stop the spindle without bending my back.

Bit of a misunderstanding there about how H&S works. Most H&S is self-regulating. H&S is the museums responsibility, and the young ladies weren't there to catch anyone out on workshop details. They they were looking for reasonable evidence (mostly paperwork) that the organisation is fulfilling it's legal responsibilities to staff, volunteers and visitors. They weren't doing a technical inspection, though they could arrange one if you wanted!

I'd be surprised to hear your museum is an irresponsible organisation, but it does happen, which is why Local Authorities check. Had the young ladies found cause for concern they have plenty of powers, including closing down the museum.

Dave

I believe that as soon as some young lad shows an interest in any kind of work ,he should be encouraged.

So what if he gets a few cuts along the way, that,s par for the course.

There is no other way to learn except to "have a go" OK you point out the dangers and keep an eye on them but you cannot be there all the time ,the y must learn for themselves. Despite what people think, they are not all thick [well, some of them anyway ] so I say ,let them at it..

I built my first sawbench when I was 16,because I could not afford to buy one. Have built a few since then.

Probably illegal in industry – children don't work in industrial settings in this country, for some very good reasons. Lots of schools have lathes so i doubt if it's illegal there – as long as done to the latest H&S legislation. Privately, I doubt there is any specific law, it's up to the adults to behave responsibly. I am sure there are many people under the age of 16 who use or even own a lathe at home – I know one.

Someone was winding you up.

The old tech scool I attended started everyone in the machine shop and carpentry shop at 11.

The metalwork master Charlie (Cog) Wheeler demonstrated the cutting eficiency of the bandsaw by bringing in some pigs trotters on the first day.
He said nothing, started the saw, sliced the trotters into little bits which he threw in the bin then said
"…the saw doesn't care. That could be your fingers, any of the machines in this shop WILL do that if you piss about with them".
End of H&S sermon.
There were a few scratches and minor bruises in there over the years, nothing serious, we all got worse in the corridors.

It was the same when I started at Chatham Tech in 1981. We used saws, files and polishers in the first year; were introduced to brazing and soldering in the second year; and blacksmith work(we made a trowel) in the third year. There was a similar progression in woodwork the next term, and the third term we spent doing technical drawing. If you chose engineering as O-level subject, you went straight into the machine shop. I wish I'd done that!

When they changed the name to Chatham Grammar in July 1982, none of that changed and it was still the same when I left 6 years later.

Back in my school days a few of us used to be allowed to spend lunch hours unsupervised in the metal work shop. The teacher thought we were sensible enough, we got to make some useful stuff and no harm came to anyone. He was taking a big risk I think for the small reward (a few of our cigs) he got, but he wanted to encourage us.

I sometimes now have junior club members invite themselves to my workshop. I welcome them and hope to encourage a new generation of model engineers, but for my own protection as much as theirs, I make it an absolute rule they will be accompanied by a responsible adult (parent, grandparent) the whole time. If using the lathe, mill, or any powered kit they will be under my constant supervision. I'm more relaxed leaving them to it with hand tools and bench work. Cuts and scrapes – hard to avoid completely learning workshop skills

Anyone of age 13 can drive a tractor – even carrying out agricultural operations. That would be while unsupervised. Possibly not to be ‘paid employment’ but it does not prevent family members on their own farms working in the fields.

Clearly supervision is necessary with power tools involved, but not being able to ‘train’ (or be educated) under the age of 16 would be a ridiculous situation.

I started driving tractors at about age 8, or earlier, over 60 years ago. First under some supervision by Dad but soon going solo. If I stalled the engine, I could not restart it (hand-cranked) so I was very careful. No safety cab and haymaking machines, etc, in tow were rather wider than the tractor.

At 12 years old I was, under supervision, taking a D8 Caterpillar with earth-moving scraper to and from the pit/tipping point. My brother (2 years older) was soon actually taking a cut on his own and tipping on the steep slope (but the driver had to be on the machine while tipping).

Too many secondary school students are unsafe for various reasons. I recall a file, with bare tang, being launched across the workshop, spinning as it flew, by one particular irk who clearly had a disagreement with the target student. Another incident at the same school involved a beaker (of strong acid or alkali) being thrown right across a laboratory, smashing when it hit the wall. Lots of students benefit from practical work, but it just needs the small minority to make things decidely unsafe.

I call mine the wife ……………..

Edited By Nick Clarke 3 on 30/06/2019 19:31:23

Nigel, I've been thinking the same thing for a long time.

When I was young a warning was given to not touch, if I touched and it hurt I was told "you wont do that again"

Obviously not allowed to play with or do anything too stupid but the lessons were learned and I grew up with everything still attached.

We all had a small pen knife when I was young and I cant recall a single stabbing, other than with a compass point in tech drawing. But a 15 year old niece sliced off a finger tip whilst washing up and tearfully declared that she didnt expect the knife to be sharp!

Other notable deficiencies involved animals, where a young constable bitten by a furry land shark (police K9 officer) thought it would not bite someone in uniform and a mounted officer had his thumb end removed by a horse when he ignored advice about keeping his hand flat when issuing the regulation polo mint (other mints are available).

Wrapping kids in cotton wool and telling them the symptoms for every malady they might suffer from is not a good idea. I was behind a 12 year old at A&E when I went in for my back OP. His mum insisted he be examined as he had banged his thumb on the table yesterday and it still hurt. She was scared there could be something seriously wrong with him, despite being able to bend it with no pain when asked. No wonder the NHS is struggling.

Regards Mick

I feel the same, but can't find much evidence to support it. You would expect being 'far more likely to have an accident when let loose as unsupervised adults' to show up in the statistics, and I don't think it does. The reason may be the strong emphasis placed by most employers on training and supervision at work.

Inexperience isn't the only issue. What causes accidents hasn't changed much:

• Inattention due to tiredness, boredom, booze, distractions, irritability, old age etc.
• Poor training, bad advice, inability to change, incompetence, and lack of imagination
• Bravado, horseplay, stupidity, bad habits, pride, and a misplaced sense of personal immunity. (Real men don't wear ear-defenders!)
• Rushing, ignoring risks, cost cutting, wrong tools & materials, bad design, planning failures and short cuts
• Novelties, surprises and mistakes (your own and others)
• Acts of God

Another problem is chaps experienced in one environment seriously underestimating the risks in another. Being good at one thing doesn't make you good at everything else. Unfortunately knowing about machine tools doesn't make you safe on a roof, or a good judge of electrical and chemical hazards, or an expert on risk assessment. Overconfidence can be fatal.

When you're young and foolish bad things only happen to other people. I know better now.

Dave