Recommend First Time Starters Lathe

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Recommend First Time Starters Lathe

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  • #272647
    Paul Kane
    Participant
      @paulkane34100

      i know this has been asked many times,I want to try and learn to use a Metal Lathe,I have done some Woodturning,I don't know whether to buy a cheapish starter lathe,or go for a decent middle ranged priced lathe,I like the look of the old lathes build in the 60s,solid looking,I would rather take a gamble,for the sake of extra money ,and buy a recommended lathe,

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      #24943
      Paul Kane
      Participant
        @paulkane34100
        #272652
        Chris Evans 6
        Participant
          @chrisevans6

          First thing before anyone can make a suggestion is your eventual intended use. Do you envisage making models and if so some idea of the size that appeals to you. My own use is for mainly motorcycle stuff which dictates a larger lathe than a small model makers choice.

          #272656
          Paul Kane
          Participant
            @paulkane34100
            Posted by Chris Evans 6 on 18/12/2016 22:22:39:

            First thing before anyone can make a suggestion is your eventual intended use. Do you envisage making models and if so some idea of the size that appeals to you. My own use is for mainly motorcycle stuff which dictates a larger lathe than a small model makers choice.

            I know it's a long way up the road,I would like to eventually make Fly Fishing Reels,A lot of Milling as well.

            All help appreciated.

            #272698
            Hopper
            Participant
              @hopper

              The eternal debate seems to be between a secondhand Myford or Boxford and take a punt on how clapped out it is, and a brand new Chinese 7 x14 mini-lathe and take a punt on the quality control during assembly. Probably the latter would be big enough for fishing reels. The Sieg C3 mini-lathe sold by ArcEurotrade seems to be a popular choice.

              Buying a 1960s lathe can be a bit like buying a 1960s car or motorbike: getting it sorted out and keeping it running can easily turn into a hobby in its own right. A lot of fun. Very satisfying. But it takes up a lot of your workshop time. And like buying a used vehicle, you need to know what you are looking at in order not to not get sold a pup.

              You can, though, do quite a bit of milling in a Myford lathe, more so than in a mini-lathe. But Seig make some quite affordable small milling machines plenty big enough for fishing reel work.

              Edited By Hopper on 19/12/2016 06:57:50

              #272699
              not done it yet
              Participant
                @notdoneityet

                Old lathes in good condition do come up for sale, as do some real tat – well worn out and possibly beyond redemption without spending far more for restoration than it is worth.

                A beginner may not realise whether it is the operator or machine which is at fault if poor results are abundant.

                Modern machines (imported from cheap labour sources) built down to a price may not be too durable – whereas the old iron in good condition may well last far better than the new stuff.

                You mention milling – are you intending to mill on the lathe or purchase a dedicated milling machine

                ? Discrete machines are nearly always the better option – less re-mounting of parts during the machining process, better rigidity and generally more robust than 'add-on' conversions. There are exceptions, of course, but fewer and further betwe

                en!

                I would likely lean towards a new lower cost machine, initially, if you have no mechanical 'nous' and progress to a more 'competent' machine later, as your experience grows. This likely means some steepish depreciation but hedges against the possibility of eventual larger financial loss should you decide against continuation in the ho

                bby (ie start small and upgrade later). I now have old iron and I don't think they will depreciate (likely the opposite!).

                #272709
                Speedy Builder5
                Participant
                  @speedybuilder5

                  If you are making Fly fishing reels, you will want to be working with 4 or 5 inch bar perhaps, or trepanning flat sheet to get that diameter. Its a big ask for a mini lathe. Workshop space may dictate size of machine. I love my BOXFORD, but the other camp love Myfords – either are capable of the sort of work you are thinking about.
                  BobH

                  #272734
                  SillyOldDuffer
                  Moderator
                    @sillyoldduffer

                    For the adequately funded beginner, taking a staged approach into the hobby has much to recommend it.

                    In this approach you eliminate the uncertainty of a second hand purchase and buy a new Mini-lathe.

                    You don't have to worry about transporting it to your workshop. If it's broken on arrival you can send it back Most come with a reasonable set of accessories: chucks, centres, steadies, spanners etc. Earlier gross quality problems seem to have been fixed, but, to set expectations, do not expect the lathe to be as good as a new Western lathe costing four to eight times as much.

                    A mini-lathe is small enough to fit on an ordinary table, runs from the domestic supply, and is quiet in operation. It will not dominate your workshop! A mini-lathe can easily be moved by two weaklings, and a fit man could do it on his own. Moving a bigger lathe can be much more problematic, soon requiring mechanical aids and a small team.

                    Once set up, a mini-lathe does all the basics that a beginner has to master : you can turn steel, cut threads, bore, and learn about chucks, backplates, travelling steadies and use of the tailstock. etc. It will give you a feel for the cutting behaviour of different metals and tools – how fast can you cut, how to get a good finish, and how to work accurately.

                    It will also teach you about its limitations, and what to look for in should you decide to upgrade later. Size restrictions are the most obvious limitation, but using a mini-lathe will inform you about Backlash, ease of adjustment (gibs etc), bearings, gearboxes, clutches, motor power, T-slots on the cross-slide, quick change tooling and much else.

                    When it comes to buying second-hand, an ounce of practical experience is worth a ton of theory. If you know what to expect from using a mini-lathe, it's much easier to detect wear, and to tell the difference between a well cared for bargain in good order, a fixer upper, and scrap metal. You will also have a much better feel for what you want of a lathe. There's a big difference between clockmaking and mending classic cars.

                    Should it turn out that you hate metalwork, a mini-lathe isn't a serious disposal problem. Being 'adequately funded' means that the moderate cost (under £1000) could be written off if the worst happened. Actually, you could certainly recover some of that by selling it on. And you won't need to hire a crane to get rid of of it!

                    The big problem for Paul buying a mini-lathe is his desire to turn fishing reels. A bigger machine would make that much easier, but it pushes the price up.

                    One actual advantage the modern hobby lathes have over older kit is the ability to turn at higher speeds. This makes it more reasonable to use indexed carbide tools, which don't perform well at low speed, For the beginner, indexing is attractive because you don't have to learn another new skill, which is how to grind HSS, and coolant / lubrication issues are less intrusive. (Later on, you may prefer HSS, but this is a sign of growing expertise.)

                    That's the case for the mini-lathe. But be aware that many chaps on the forum have picked up absolute bargains, partly because they know what they are doing, but also luck and circumstances! Over the last 20 years market changes have caused most educational establishments and engineering firms to dump good quality manual equipment wholesale in favour of CNC. Some of it is virtually unused, and much of it is well maintained. All you have to do is avoid the crocks, worn-out, thrashed, or expensively broken! Another good source is the workshop of a model engineer separated from his tools by death or illness. Some people spend more time keeping their kit in good order than they do making things.

                    In conclusion, the beginner has a lot to learn. Taking it step by step is good fun. What makes learning a nightmare is taking on too much at once, for example by using a lathe that's fundamentally flawed in ways you don't understand yet. Especially if you sold the farm to pay for it.

                    Whatever Paul decides to do, please stick with it – using a machine tool to make things one of the most deeply satisfying things I've ever done.

                    Dave

                    #272737
                    David Standing 1
                    Participant
                      @davidstanding1
                      Posted by Speedy Builder5 on 19/12/2016 08:06:07:

                      I love my BOXFORD, but the other camp love Myfords – either are capable of the sort of work you are thinking about.
                      BobH

                      I seem to have hedged my bets and ended up with both a Myford and a Boxford wink.

                      #273051
                      Paul Kane
                      Participant
                        @paulkane34100
                        Posted by Hopper on 19/12/2016 06:53:51:

                        The eternal debate seems to be between a secondhand Myford or Boxford and take a punt on how clapped out it is, and a brand new Chinese 7 x14 mini-lathe and take a punt on the quality control during assembly. Probably the latter would be big enough for fishing reels. The Sieg C3 mini-lathe sold by ArcEurotrade seems to be a popular choice.

                        Buying a 1960s lathe can be a bit like buying a 1960s car or motorbike: getting it sorted out and keeping it running can easily turn into a hobby in its own right. A lot of fun. Very satisfying. But it takes up a lot of your workshop time. And like buying a used vehicle, you need to know what you are looking at in order not to not get sold a pup.

                        You can, though, do quite a bit of milling in a Myford lathe, more so than in a mini-lathe. But Seig make some quite affordable small milling machines plenty big enough for fishing reel work.

                        Edited By Hopper on 19/12/2016 06:57:50

                        Thanks Kindly for your help.Ill probably lean towards a mini lathe.and get some practical experience first.

                        #273052
                        Paul Kane
                        Participant
                          @paulkane34100
                          Posted by not done it yet on 19/12/2016 07:03:33:

                          Old lathes in good condition do come up for sale, as do some real tat – well worn out and possibly beyond redemption without spending far more for restoration than it is worth.

                          A beginner may not realise whether it is the operator or machine which is at fault if poor results are abundant.

                          Modern machines (imported from cheap labour sources) built down to a price may not be too durable – whereas the old iron in good condition may well last far better than the new stuff.

                          You mention milling – are you intending to mill on the lathe or purchase a dedicated milling machine

                          ? Discrete machines are nearly always the better option – less re-mounting of parts during the machining process, better rigidity and generally more robust than 'add-on' conversions. There are exceptions, of course, but fewer and further betwe

                          en!

                          I would likely lean towards a new lower cost machine, initially, if you have no mechanical 'nous' and progress to a more 'competent' machine later, as your experience grows. This likely means some steepish depreciation but hedges against the possibility of eventual larger financial loss should you decide against continuation in the ho

                          bby (ie start small and upgrade later). I now have old iron and I don't think they will depreciate (likely the opposite!).

                          Thanks,Looks like a mini,and separate Milling machine,What's the general consensus on the Clark CL 500M ?

                          #273054
                          Paul Kane
                          Participant
                            @paulkane34100
                            Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 19/12/2016 11:10:54:

                            For the adequately funded beginner, taking a staged approach into the hobby has much to recommend it.

                            In this approach you eliminate the uncertainty of a second hand purchase and buy a new Mini-lathe.

                            You don't have to worry about transporting it to your workshop. If it's broken on arrival you can send it back Most come with a reasonable set of accessories: chucks, centres, steadies, spanners etc. Earlier gross quality problems seem to have been fixed, but, to set expectations, do not expect the lathe to be as good as a new Western lathe costing four to eight times as much.

                            A mini-lathe is small enough to fit on an ordinary table, runs from the domestic supply, and is quiet in operation. It will not dominate your workshop! A mini-lathe can easily be moved by two weaklings, and a fit man could do it on his own. Moving a bigger lathe can be much more problematic, soon requiring mechanical aids and a small team.

                            Once set up, a mini-lathe does all the basics that a beginner has to master : you can turn steel, cut threads, bore, and learn about chucks, backplates, travelling steadies and use of the tailstock. etc. It will give you a feel for the cutting behaviour of different metals and tools – how fast can you cut, how to get a good finish, and how to work accurately.

                            It will also teach you about its limitations, and what to look for in should you decide to upgrade later. Size restrictions are the most obvious limitation, but using a mini-lathe will inform you about Backlash, ease of adjustment (gibs etc), bearings, gearboxes, clutches, motor power, T-slots on the cross-slide, quick change tooling and much else.

                            When it comes to buying second-hand, an ounce of practical experience is worth a ton of theory. If you know what to expect from using a mini-lathe, it's much easier to detect wear, and to tell the difference between a well cared for bargain in good order, a fixer upper, and scrap metal. You will also have a much better feel for what you want of a lathe. There's a big difference between clockmaking and mending classic cars.

                            Should it turn out that you hate metalwork, a mini-lathe isn't a serious disposal problem. Being 'adequately funded' means that the moderate cost (under £1000) could be written off if the worst happened. Actually, you could certainly recover some of that by selling it on. And you won't need to hire a crane to get rid of of it!

                            The big problem for Paul buying a mini-lathe is his desire to turn fishing reels. A bigger machine would make that much easier, but it pushes the price up.

                            One actual advantage the modern hobby lathes have over older kit is the ability to turn at higher speeds. This makes it more reasonable to use indexed carbide tools, which don't perform well at low speed, For the beginner, indexing is attractive because you don't have to learn another new skill, which is how to grind HSS, and coolant / lubrication issues are less intrusive. (Later on, you may prefer HSS, but this is a sign of growing expertise.)

                            That's the case for the mini-lathe. But be aware that many chaps on the forum have picked up absolute bargains, partly because they know what they are doing, but also luck and circumstances! Over the last 20 years market changes have caused most educational establishments and engineering firms to dump good quality manual equipment wholesale in favour of CNC. Some of it is virtually unused, and much of it is well maintained. All you have to do is avoid the crocks, worn-out, thrashed, or expensively broken! Another good source is the workshop of a model engineer separated from his tools by death or illness. Some people spend more time keeping their kit in good order than they do making things.

                            In conclusion, the beginner has a lot to learn. Taking it step by step is good fun. What makes learning a nightmare is taking on too much at once, for example by using a lathe that's fundamentally flawed in ways you don't understand yet. Especially if you sold the farm to pay for it.

                            Whatever Paul decides to do, please stick with it – using a machine tool to make things one of the most deeply satisfying things I've ever done.

                            Dave

                            Thanks Kindly,for your detailed response,It looks like a mimi lathe,just to get a feel of things first,and see if I can become competent first,What is the general consensus on the Clarke CL500M Lathe?

                            #273071
                            Hopper
                            Participant
                              @hopper
                              Posted by Paul Kane on 20/12/2016 22:56:04:

                              What is the general consensus on the Clarke CL500M Lathe?

                              CL500M? Isnt that a combined lathe and mill? Not real popular with many model engineers if so. General opinion seems to be you are better to get a good lathe for lathing and a good mill for milling and not try to use a one size fits all machine. But I have no personal experience with a lathe/mill combo so can only point out what others have said.

                              But I do have a mate who recently bought one of those Chinese 7 x 14 mini lathes, same as the Sieg C3, and have had a bit of a play around with it and am suitably impressed, especially at the price. He is a complete beginner and has hit the ground running with it, doing all sorts of good work on it.

                              #273073
                              not done it yet
                              Participant
                                @notdoneityet

                                CL500M

                                 

                                That(?) is what I bought, many years ago. Never really used the milling option (need a good riser block for a start). It is currently in pieces (to remove it from its location) and will be rebuilt for moving on. I never really got on so well with it and have since replaced it by a Raglan LittleJohn MkIi. Superior, IMO, than a myford – a boxford might be better (but generally a younger item?).

                                 

                                A Raglan 5" would, in hindsight, have been even better, but at more initial cost. I will admit that some aspects were definitely due to my inexperience in metal cutting, at the time. My wood machining experience was rather better than metal machining at the time!

                                 

                                My Raglan with QCGB, rapid long travel traverse (compared to the CL) and powered cross feed was far less money. It needed a good going over (due, largely, to storage circumstances) but I would now never go back to the CL.  Fiddling with V belts, change wheels and manual long and cross travel (or slow long travel using the powered feed) is a phase of my experience which is now well in the past!

                                 

                                The smaller model 430 might be a more manageable option (sufficient swing for your needs?). I am biased – the Raglan lathe and mill both have my admiration and I much prefer the old iron. I also have a Centec mill, which is both horizontal and vertical, really heavily built and will perform as good as, or better than, a modern chinese offering (which will be built down to a price rather than up to a quality) in the price range.

                                 

                                I would suggest you have a look at the older british product fora, to get a feel of the possible problems and the claimed advantages of ownership, before deciding. There are yahoo and freeforums groups (as well as a search on this forum, of course). Just don't be rushed into a decision. Time is on your side. Mistakes can be costly.

                                Edited By not done it yet on 21/12/2016 07:48:49

                                #273074
                                HOWARDT
                                Participant
                                  @howardt

                                  I am a fly fisher and a model engineer with Sieg C3 and SX2P. The problem with the C3 is the limited cross travel as it comes. There are lots of mods out there to increase the cross travel and create a much better finished lathe than what it is when you buy it. I have had mine for ten months and done nothing to it yet, most of my work has been on the mill. Am in the process of formulating the changes I will start in the new year. Certainly if you have no experience using machinery then then these machines with some guidance from a user would be of benefit. Anything larger is a more costly and these increased cost continue as you need larger tools etc. I will say go forth and enjoy, after a lot of frustration it will all lick in place and you will start to enjoy it.

                                  Tight lines

                                  Howard

                                  #273102
                                  Howard Lewis
                                  Participant
                                    @howardlewis46836

                                    Welcome! from another Howard!

                                    My advice would be: before spending any money, try to find a Model Engineering Society (Club) near to you.

                                    This could well be the place to find out which ones are near to you. (Where are you located)

                                    Hopefully, members will be prepared to show and demonstrate their machines (and their prejudices!) to you.

                                    You will benefit from their experiences, and gain some at the same time.

                                    They will also offer advice on where to obtain material, and overcome any problems that may arise.

                                    Time in research will be well spent. And you may be able to get one of the members to come with to assess the condition of a secondhand machine. Bear in mind that an ex industry Dean, Smith and Grace, Swift, Edgwick, Harrison or Colchester may well be badly worn. Whilst an ex Tech College machine may have seen little use, and be little worn, it may have been inadvertently abused by students running the Saddle into the Chuck and so on. (Although that might be more cosmetic than terminal).

                                    Think about, and get advice on, what accessories, such as Steadies, Faceplates, etc; and any spares, you might need, and their availability.

                                    Above all; Make Haste Slowly.

                                    Howard

                                    #273122
                                    MalcB
                                    Participant
                                      @malcb52554

                                      Just a quick warning!

                                      For anybody who constantly follows Ebay like me, there has been adds running for new Mini Lathes at around the £250 mark for the last two weeks. These are SCAMs being sold by newly registered zero feedback sellers. Some get pulled snd some have actually been purchased.

                                      If you do opt for a new mini as suggested then go with one of the big names of trading partners that are mentioned frequently or appear on here such as Warco, Chester machines, Amadeal, Arceurotrade etc

                                      Dont be put off with mini lathes. When i started serving my time as a toolroom turner i did my first 3 months on a precision bench lathe with only hand feeds. I learned a massive amount in that time before moving onto bigger lathes to further develop.

                                      Good luck

                                       

                                      Edited By MalcB on 21/12/2016 14:09:18

                                      Edited By MalcB on 21/12/2016 14:10:16

                                      #273126
                                      MW
                                      Participant
                                        @mw27036
                                        Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 19/12/2016 11:10:54:

                                        For the adequately funded beginner, taking a staged approach into the hobby has much to recommend it.

                                        In this approach you eliminate the uncertainty of a second hand purchase and buy a new Mini-lathe.

                                        Whatever Paul decides to do, please stick with it – using a machine tool to make things one of the most deeply satisfying things I've ever done.

                                        Dave

                                        Would have to agree with this wholeheartedly, you can't go straight into what might be a fiddly restoration on an old lathe, you'll only encounter frustration as a beginner. It's best to learn from a modest yet new machine you can depend on. Escalation with necessity is probably the way most of us have navigated this hobby.

                                        Theres a great quote from clint eastwood in gran turino, he shows a kid his garage full of his car restoration tools to his amazement. He asks him how he got them,

                                        and he replies "well even a numbskull like you can figure out it takes a man most of his life to create a collection like this" – Very true of most..

                                        Michael W

                                        Edited By Michael Walters on 21/12/2016 14:36:41

                                        #273179
                                        richardandtracy
                                        Participant
                                          @richardandtracy

                                          If you are considering a Clarke CL500, do go for the CL430 instead. The milling head really isn't very good (I have the Warco equivalent & the milling head is very flexible, breaking cutters easily).

                                          Regards

                                          Richard.

                                          #273216
                                          bodge
                                          Participant
                                            @bodge

                                            There is an Acorn 5 x 24 lathe for sale on www lathes .co ,might be worth a look at if its not too far from you, plenty of stuff with it for about the same price as a mlnnie lathe .

                                            The big four jaw shown in the pics i think may be too big for this lathe, the 5 is centre height so will swing 10" dia

                                            …………………..b

                                            if possible try to take someone with you who knows the things to look out for when buying second hand lathe if you go that route ……..b

                                            Edited By bodge on 22/12/2016 03:50:35

                                            #273218
                                            bodge
                                            Participant
                                              @bodge

                                              For what its worth if i was in the market looking for a lathe i would be giving that 5 x 24 acorn a good look at , having just had another good look at the pics im inclined to think it hasnt done a lot of work .

                                              I fall in with "not done it yet " on this subject.

                                              The trouble with the new verses old is, new you can buy any time but the older english stuff is a waiting game more so if you want some thing different than the usual myford / boxford offerings, Acorn machines were really well made, if you cant find any one to go with you to look at a s/h machine take a good look at the lead screw if the threads look noticeably thinner at the head stock end then its more than likely done a fair bit of work, then check spindle for side ways play chuck a bit of bar stock to check to do this you shouldnt be able to feel any, check for any play on the carriage & cross slide they should move smoothly but you should not be able to detect any play when you apply a twisting motion by hand, though if you can feel some movement this may just need adjustment on the gib screws, dont worry about a bit of back lash in the feed screws, even new m/c,s have some

                                              As you can probably tell i"m not a fan of Chinese made lathes, though if i had no other option available then it would be Sieg probably from arc- euro

                                              I would phone and see if i could get first refusal on the Acorn first though, this is assuming by older english makes you were not meaning the the bigger stuff like Harrison, Colchester , DSG and the like.

                                              Goes with out saying though only you can decide which way to go, so what ever you decide good luck…………….b

                                              I have no connection to the vendor of the Acorn lathe what so ever , it just looks like it could be a good buy……….b

                                              #273227
                                              MalcB
                                              Participant
                                                @malcb52554

                                                The Acorn looks a very good deal indeed. Not very often you will find one as well equiped. A bit of loving care needed to clean all the accessories up.

                                                Just not sure if it will provide metric threads. The way it reads it looks as though its had a Norton type gearbox conversion with the original change wheels included. Not familiar with this model but no doubt a telephone call to Tony at Lathes will will help.

                                                Its located in Rochdale which is only about 8 miles from me so if anybody wants a second set of eyes for viewing and the vendor is OK with it, will be happy to oblige and accompany.

                                                Malc

                                                #273273
                                                bodge
                                                Participant
                                                  @bodge

                                                  I wouldnt worry about weather it could cut metric threads or not its a minor problem easily solved .

                                                  does look a fair bit kit for the money , i"d have ago with it myself but its a bit late in the day to change to another lathe now…………….b

                                                  #273292
                                                  Russell Eberhardt
                                                  Participant
                                                    @russelleberhardt48058

                                                    I've had an Acorntools version of the Atlas lathe since the 1970's. I am quite happy with it and wouldn't swap it for a Myford. It is like a bigger version of a Myford series 7. They come with power crossfeed as standard.

                                                    They do cope well with metric screwcutting without the use of the gearbox. The threading chart on mine lists 16 metric pitches although you do have to wind the lathe back, without disengaging the half nuts, between each pass so a reversing motor is a big benefit.

                                                    The screwcutting gearbox isn't a conversion but was a standard option and is rather rare now.

                                                    Russell

                                                    #273298
                                                    Dave Halford
                                                    Participant
                                                      @davehalford22513

                                                      Best to read the forums very carefully

                                                      Remember electronic speed controllers reduce the torque as they reduce the speed. Belt systems increase torque.

                                                      Some of the control boards were/are known to blow if overloaded or if they get damp. Belts just slip.

                                                      Yes you can return if faulty , but not if you miss-treated it, and then that's two more times you need to be at home + the delivery may just be to the curb side not to where you want to use it.

                                                      Some lathes can swing 7" diameter, but you can't get a tool to cut the outside edges just the face.

                                                      Any thing with Myford written on attracts a premium price, but then you can get it back one day.

                                                      New stuff is like new cars they just get much cheaper 2nd hand.

                                                      It's your money, chose what suits you best.

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