Why are milling machines so b****y expensive

[WolfieParticipant @wolfie]

OK I’m in the market for a milling machine. I’m a bit strapped for room and cash so it doesn’t want to be too big. I guess I’m sniffing around the lower end of the Warco/Sieg/Chester/Clarke sort of range.

 

Now the lathes in that area were around £300 when I bought an Axminster some time since, that same lathe is now about £350. However equivalent (lower end of the range) mills are in the £600-£900 range. Why is this?

 

And how good are they? I don’t want to shell out 6-700 quid to find I have a machine which will barely handle the job as I did with my mini lathe. Although admittedly it did turn up to around an inch in diameter it didn’t have enough travel etc for what I wanted to do.

 

I was almost decided on a Warco WM14, but note that the price has gone up recently. Grrrrrr.

 

Anyone got a small but good mill for sale?

[WolfieParticipant @wolfie]

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Machine tools have never been so cheap, made in China/India etc mostly by workers on low wages,crap conditions and no health and safety regs etc, I suppose like our cotton mills in victorian times. All the quality manufacturers in the west are gone so take your pick of the rest on offer!

Tony

PS. We have bought all their manufactured goods and they have all our money so whats next?

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Well Wolfie

 

One answer is that with a milling machine size IS everything! – In that I mean it needs to be very solidly built in order to have maximum rigidity. So the first cost factor is simply the amount of metal required.

 

Regards

 

Norman

Edited By NJH on 02/12/2011 22:42:07

[SpringbokParticipant @springbok]

Hi Woolfie

Been to both China and India and seen the conditions in the factories and surrounding areas and the cotton mill workers were in absolute luxury. seen workers comeing in from the country on busses, no seats they had to lie, cook sleep, et all; in a small space. Warco like all others depend on the currency rate, and I am sure that david warren tries to plan his purchasing accordingly, but with the way the markets are at the moment it must be a nightmare.

 

Economics over I agree with NJH get the largest mill you can into the space you have.

I use my Chester626 far more than the lathe. (Warco) but again it depends on what you want to make.

 

Good luck whatever way you go and keep us posted.

 

Bob

[Steve WithnellParticipant @stevewithnell34426]

Buy the biggest + heaviest one that will fit in the space – stretch the budget as much as you can, you will have the machine a long long time…

[David HaynesParticipant @davidhaynes53962]

I too am in the market for a mill . After an iterative tour I seem to have settled on the Sieg X3/imperial/R8, and have tabulated the search on http://modeleng.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=toolsandtooling&action=display&thread=6791 and discussion ensues. Also have a look at http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=35230&p=1. I have updated the table and will send a copy if you want. Sadly, the X3 Xmas offer at ArcEuro has sold out in the type I want and I will be paying more when new stock arrives in January.

Dave

[ChrisHParticipant @chrish]

Hi Wolfie,

 

I also nearly went with the Warco WM14, but then I found Warco were doing the ‘Economy’ milling machine at a special offer price of £600. I guess they were trying to get rid of old stock, the machine is not listed now! Although it has a round column it was also 3 times the weight and much bigger so I decided to take a punt, with that price it was a bit of a no-brainer really, and am very glad I did, it seems very good for the money.

 

Axminster (the ZX25) and Chester (Eagle 25) do very similar mill/drills, would be worth your look.

 

ChrisH

[mickParticipant @mick65121]

I’ve had an Axminster mill/drill for five years, which cost under £500, I think the price is still pretty much the same today. The machine is solid, the slides are good and the fine quill feed is exceptable, but you will need some kind of digtial readout on all three axis to machine any thing accurate. The machine has done everything I’ve ever asked of it. Be warned conventinual milling was a five year apprenticeship, so just buying a mill without any practicial experience there might be tears before bedtime!!

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Buy used, British. I was looking at getting a Chinese mill adapted for CMCC but managed to get an ex college Denford for a third the price. The quality is in a totally different league.

[david newman 9Participant @davidnewman9]

About 35 years ago I bought a S/H Mikron mill (Swiss) for £250 from the Exchange and Mart it was owned by an horologist and looked to be in good order.

 

Well after all this time and a fair ammount of use it still performs perfectly it is a small machine table size 15 x 5 inches, and so heavily built even the stand is cast iron and machined . It has power feeds to the table, vertical and horizontal heads. Also came with set of collets. Every surface is hand scraped and all the scraper marks still show , I just checked feed screws Max 5 thou backlash.

 

Wonder how many of these import machines coming in now are anywhere near this quality and still be perfect after probably 40 years. David

[John ThorneParticipant @johnthorne49048]

I have a Amadeal AMA 25LV which is the same as Warcos WM16 except it has a larger

motor and a No 3MT instead of a No 2 MT. I required No 3MT as all my holders were

this size as the tail stock on my lathe (Warco WMT300) is a No 3 MT. The price is lower

than the WM16. So far it has preformed very well and I have no complaints about it.

I will admit that I did purchase it with DRO’s already fitted and a power feed to the table but they do offer the basic machine.

John

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

Once again it’s worth emphasising you generally get what you pay for. Not paying the price upfront frequently involves paying the price afterwards. If you buy a machine with a good reputation, second hand if need be, you can feel confident that any learning curve failings are down to the operator. There is also the sheer satisfaction that comes from working with beautifully designed and manufactured machinery. It’s important, in my opinion, to find the whole experience pleasurable rather than frustrating or annoying.

[Mark P.Participant @markp]

Wolfie, my advice is decide what the biggest thing is that you may want to machine,then buy one twice as big.I bought a Warco WM16 and whilst it does all I ask of ti, I wish I had bought a bigger one.remember you can do small things on a big machine you can’t do big things on a small machine!

 

Regards Pailo.

[WolfieParticipant @wolfie]

Very true gents but the other criteria is that I don’t have a lot of room. I’ve already had to turn a 2nd hand one down (for £200!!) cos it was too big

 

[David HaynesParticipant @davidhaynes53962]

Sorry, I posted a mill comment on another thread http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=35230&p=4, but perhaps it could have gone on this one instead.

2nd hand mill for £200, what was it? A shame it was too big.

 

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by John Haine on 03/12/2011 16:32:16:
Buy used, British. I was looking at getting a Chinese mill adapted for CMCC but managed to get an ex college Denford for a third the price. The quality is in a totally different league.

 

 

Apples and oranges.

Did you compare the price of a brand new Denford over the Chinese mill ?

 

John S.

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi Wolfie,

 

Here’s a neat one, These come up on eBay regularly

 

Regards

 

T

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Short table model for £500 secondhand, when a long table model brand new is only £275 ?

 

Sounds like a bargain <g>

 

John S.

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Posted by John Stevenson on 04/12/2011 13:59:15:

Short table model for £500 secondhand, when a long table model brand new is only £275 ?

 

Sounds like a bargain <g>

 

John S.

Dunno John,

 

Not sure of the model, by the red paintwork I presume it’s a Seig of which I know nothing, don’t particularly want to either. Just pointing out that eBay is probably a better bet than asking here “if there is a miller for sale”. Of course I would expect any buyer to do his research first. I assumed that was just common sense and took it for granted, thanks for clarifying though for those who don’t check prices.

 

T

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Having worked on Schaublin milling machines in my working life I just checked to see if they were available, No, they have ceased trading and do not make them anymore.

They were expensive but excellent machines.

I checked some of the secondhand sites and a few came up in Switzerland but they never give the prices. One place has dozens for sale!

A Schaublin 13 mill recently sold for £1375 here in the UK.

It seems they are like hens teeth in the UK. hard to come by.

I will have to lower my sights I think.

 

Clive

[VersabossParticipant @versaboss]

Ah Clive, a Schaublin 13 would be a bit too much for Wolfie!!! (in size, weight and price).

Btw, some years ago I paid CHF 16’000 for mine ( a late machine), and a couple thousands for secondhand tooling. But it’s a good machine, better than the old Deckel FP1 I had before.

Although, for fine milling jobs I prefer the Fehlmann; much more ‘feeling’ in the handles.

Greetings, Hansrudolf

[Richard ParsonsParticipant @richardparsons61721]

I have sometimes wondered why I bought my vertical mill. Many of the jobs I do on it could have been better done by the Horizontal Mill, a Machine Shaper or a Box Planer. I am not certain about the Horizontal mill but I am pretty certain that neither the Shaper nor the Planer have ever been fitted with CNC controls.

The powered shaper is quite a robust lump, but small ones like the Adept can be small and simple to use. My Dad had a hand shaper in the back of his old dormobile. I have spent quite a few cold wet days using it to clean up something agricultural in the middle of nowhere. The shaper was ‘liberated’ from Germany and was allocated to Dad by the Min of Ag. I looked like the Arrow illustrates in the Lathes.co.uk web site, but it had a mechanism which allowed the tool carrier yo radius round . It could be bolted onto a shaft to cut a keyway.

The Box Planer is normally considered to be a gigantic machine. The one I knew was some 12 meters long. I was working on the design of a ‘WIP’ system for the Heavy Machine shop. I was a pre war machine and schemes were everlastingly put forward to replace it, but none were up to the job. However I have an illustration one which has a stroke of about 12”. These machines are very simple and able to economically machine large components in a limited space. Very few have survived because they are regarded as ‘old hat’. But those that do are ‘snapped up’ because of their simplicity and versatility.

My ‘concept book’ is full of sketches for a planer to be made by Mineral Casting technique as publicised by John McNamara in his thread on building a tool grinder. I have all but 2 items I need to make the thing. But I cannot get 2 to 3 litres of low viscosity epoxy (there are problems with Minimum Order Quantities, Zoning, and about AFA (VAT) registration. I am not registered for AFA). The other item is 2 meters of narrow steel channel. I have not looked for that yet.

[NilochParticipant @niloch]

Wolfie,

There are members here who know a hundred times more about milling machines than I do. However, upon the advice of three experienced fellow club members all of whom own such a machine, I was encouraged six months ago to buy a s/hand British made Centec 2B.

 

Mine came from Ebay, the vendor willingly had it placed on a pallet and transportation from the Midlands to Hampshire was most reasonable.

 

Mine had the highly sought after quill head but no horizontal milling attachments. It was also three phase but a chartered electrical engineer and fellow club member has converted the main and power feed motors to delta configuration and s/hand inverters bought.

 

DRO is the next step, it really is a very nice machine. I stand to be corrected by those more knowledgeable but I suspect Centec ceased production in the 1960’s.

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

I am not certain about the Horizontal mill but I am pretty certain that neither the Shaper nor the Planer have ever been fitted with CNC controls.

 

I have fitted CNC controls to both a horizontal milling machines & a planer while in my previous employment.

 

The milling machine was an Ajax & was converted from a manual machine by fitting ballscrews all round & a Heidenhain control to produce CRT grid frames for a Welsh based Japanese manufacturer.

 

The planer was a large Butler, again fitted with ballscrews (except the table) and a new heavy duty milling head (30Kw) in addition to the planing head. Again, a Heidenhain control & done for a railway points & crossings maker in South Yorks. They wanted to CNC plane radii on points castings. This worked up to a point, but tool clearance was a big problem & would have really required a rotating toolpost to keep the tool from jamming in the rail groove. The control also had a limit of 100 meters radius for circular moves – as some main line points had radii in the kilometers range, they had to be programmed as a aseries of straight lines (worked out by the Drawing Office).

 

I have also seen a CNC slotter, used by a manufacturer of tank & naval guns to slot the breech ring for the breech block

 

You can CNC pretty well anything if you put your mind to it !

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