Which lathe

[Simon Baldwin 1Participant @simonbaldwin1]

Hi there, here is the eternal question! Ok I want a lathe for my shed, problem is that in my shed there will be lots of other machinery from my ever expanding hobbies, so I don’t have a lot of room, so I need a small bench mounted lathe, now I did consider a new Chinese built 7×14 lathe which is around my budget, but I hear so many bad things about them, now I don’t need anything huge, but what is more important to me is precision and something that is strudy and rock solid, something I have heard that these Chinese lathes don’t do, so my question is, what is a good enough small lathe that fits that requirement? I have around £450 to spend so a second hand lathe is ok, also can these small Chinese lathes be made to work well? I don’t mind spending time to get it perfect, like I said it needs to be accurate and solid and small, I have access to a Colchester at work!

Regards

[Simon Baldwin 1Participant @simonbaldwin1]

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Simon,

"precision and something that is strudy and rock solid"

… Sounds like a Pultra 1770 to me [if you can find one at the price]

MichaelG.

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Others will have alternative suggestions, I'm sure.

[Simon CollierParticipant @simoncollier74340]

Your requirements are incompatible with your budget, not a rare phenomenon! A C3 type lathe can be made to perform OK. Consider Neil's book on the C3 mini lathe, and have a look at the article on setting up one of these lathes on the Arc Euro site.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Welcome Simon,

Michael's response reminds me of "Fast, good or cheap? Choose two, because you won't get all three"

Actually precision isn't an issue with mini-lathes, you can work to sub-thou accuracy just as with any other 'ordinary' lathe. The simple jig-made inverted-v beds offer good alignment without great expense. Precision is largely a measure of the operator's skill with any lathe, even a super adept can be precise if it's set up carefully.

Sturdy and rock solid doesn't really apply to any small bench lathe. There are lathes that are more rigid than mini-lathes but they cost a lot more. But rock solid… Presumably you have the rate of metal removal in mind? A mini-lathe will remove metal at the theoretical rate for its HP at 1/8" DOC but don't expect a satin-smooth finish at the same time.

The latest MEW has a second hand Colchester Triumph for £5750 in the back. Modern, accurate and sturdy and the same price as a s/h Myford S7 which is old-fashioned, pretty accurate and fairly sturdy. A mini lathe (modern, pretty accurate and not hugely sturdy) will set you back 1/10 of that price. Will it be as good? No. Are the other lathes ten times better? You be the judge.

Neil

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 21/11/2017 20:44:08:

Michael's response reminds me of "Fast, good or cheap? Choose two, because you won't get all three"

.

… But Fast, Good and a 'stretch target' … with a bit of luck.

MichaelG.

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Edit: Here's an interesting 'reality check' … It's sold, so only of academic interest, but looks like it may have been a reasonable 'kit of parts'

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PULTRA-1770-WATCHMAKERS-LATHE-DRAWBARS-COLLETS-MARDRIVE-ACCESSORIES-015-/371989579848

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 21/11/2017 21:28:55

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

Your stated specification is for "precision" , what sort of tolerances are you expecting to work to? I have a Warco Chinese lathe and two Chinese mills, they have always produced work to the tolerances that I have needed, I have been very pleased with all my machines they have always achieved what I have expected. Do not be put off by the current adverse comments circulating on this site about problems with Chinese machines, there are many owners out there more than happy with their purchases. For the prices paid they are excellent value for money, it is important to remember that the operator is an important factor in what any machine can achieve, a good operator gets to know his machine and its limitations and is able to achieve very precise work. I am sure that a Chinese lathe will meet your expectations.

Dave W

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Really tricky. I think your budget is too low and your expectations too high, we've all done it. This link is to a second-hand Cowells, very like what you want except he's asking £1750.

Someone has told you stuff about Chinese lathes that may be unhelpful to a man in your position. It won't be easy to find a cheap second-hand precision lathe and you will need to inspect it to make sure it's in good order. People do get lucky and you might be one of them. Or not.

In your position I'd start by looking at a Chinese mini-lathe. A real one. Decide for yourself if it will do or not. It won't be a Colchester, but any lathe is better than no lathe. People certainly do excellent work on mini-lathes. Where are you? Someone on the forum might be able to give you a demo. Otherwise, MachineMart may have a showroom example, or you could visit a local show or vendor.

If what you like what you see buy one. If you don't like what you see start scanning ebay, lathes.co.uk, this site, and anywhere else you can think of to find an alternative. You can always ask the forum for advice when you find a candidate.

Dave

[Simon Baldwin 1Participant @simonbaldwin1]

Thanks for the replies guys, I do understand that it is a unreasonable request, I wouldn’t pay silly money for a myford though, I’m sure there is just as good for less money, also regarding hp, I know that these Chinese lathes have 550w dc motors, but I have so many 3phase motors, mostly .75kw and several vfd, so I could fit one of these to it!

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Simon Baldwin 1 on 21/11/2017 21:22:21:
Thanks for the replies guys, I do understand that it is a unreasonable request, I wouldn't pay silly money for a myford though, I'm sure there is just as good for less money, also regarding hp, I know that these Chinese lathes have 550w dc motors, but I have so many 3phase motors, mostly .75kw and several vfd, so I could fit one of these to it!

That's what I did to mine after swarf got inside my control box…

http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/news/article/3-phase-conversion-and-other-alternative-methods-of-powering-a-mini-lathe/18752

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

With the advent of high speed carbides, it would be technically possible to build a rock solid small machine with a hefty rate of metal removal, proportional to it's size, say 2-3.5" centre height lathe. if only you could utilize a spindle that could handle tens of thousands of rpm.

 

Mind you that wouldn't be for the light hearted.

 

Michael W

Edited By Michael-w on 21/11/2017 22:02:23

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

For a small industrial lathe, and carbide tooling I still remember having the then brand new Chipmaster demonstrated to us in the metal shop at school in 1963, a 4" steel bar in the chuck, and a 1/2" depth of cut, the steel was not a free cutting grade, and the next thing was grear blue streamers of steel. For some unknown reason us school kids were not allowed to use it, we still had to use the ancient Harrisons on the line shafting.

Ian S C

[mark smith 20Participant @marksmith20]

A bit over your budget but GM tools have just listed a rather nice what looks like late 1940s – 1950s south bend Model A. Looks to have not much wear and the condition of the paintwork is far better than my 1963 model A when i bought it.

Ideal for someone looking for something better than a myford ml7

**LINK** .

 

Edited By mark smith 20 on 22/11/2017 13:01:43

[Gordon TarlingParticipant @gordontarling37126]

I found a used Emco Compact 8 for a little less than £450. Now, I may have been lucky, but it was barely used, though 'old'. I've been very impressed with its performance so far and have no trouble parting off 1" steel bar just with a parting tool in the toolpost. My only real 'gripe' is that accessories are hard to find and tend to be expensive, but I'm really only yearning for a fixed steady. They do appear on Ebay from time to time, which is how I found mine.

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

That SB looks like a very nice machine with lots of accessories. You could do a lot worse, assuming it's in decent nick.

If you shipped it over to US / Canada, you'd probably get a few grand for it from what I saw in my time over there. They have a nostalgic thing for them over there, rather like Brits with their Myfords and the resulting pricing.

Murray

[Steve WithnellParticipant @stevewithnell34426]

Get a C3 and start turning! My critieria for my lathe was it had to be the heaviest I could find that would fit on the bench and be new Chinese. Makes perfectly good stuff. Mind you, I don't get tool room jobs from NASA that often

Crazy decision making criteria, but no regrets at all and it's done a quite few jobs now over the ten years I've had it.

Steve

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I know I am biased but a few jobs done on my mini lathe, admittedly with roller bearinmg conversion, but i never had any problems before doing it:

0.125" DOC (the manual recommends 0.01" max…)

Finish you can get parting off with a carbide tool (1" diameter):

2 1/4" diameter knurl using single wheel held in toolpost:

Capacity for swarf generation…

Parting off 1 1/4" steel using HSS tool:

As LBSC would have said, any questions?

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

That reminds me of my experiments back in 2013 where I attempted to reproduce the enormous long swarves that were shown in the South Bend handbook. Although my Bantam is a bit bigger than a mini lathe, I was able to take a 10mm cut and completely turn 1" diameter stock into swarf in one pass, notwithstanding the pilot hole in the centre. One thing I think it shows is how much influence a good sharp tool has on the cutting process. This was just an HSS tool and was possible on machines 80 or more years ago.

Murray

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 22/11/2017 19:54:56:

I know I am biased but a few jobs done on my mini lathe, admittedly with roller bearinmg conversion, but i never had any problems before doing it:

0.125" DOC (the manual recommends 0.01" max…)

Finish you can get parting off with a carbide tool (1" diameter):

2 1/4" diameter knurl using single wheel held in toolpost:

Capacity for swarf generation…

Parting off 1 1/4" steel using HSS tool:

As LBSC would have said, any questions?

You were doing so well until that pile of brass swarf hiding a lathe made its periodic appearance

[Anonymous]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 22/11/2017 19:54:56:

As LBSC would have said, any questions?

Surely he would have said "nuf sed"?

I do have a question though. In the first picture why are there a series of radial lines on the cut surface? Chatter?

Andrew

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I don't deny it's brass, but it proves I'm not just an armchair machinist 😛

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 22/11/2017 21:58:51:

I don't deny it's brass, but it proves I'm not just an armchair machinist 😛

 

Where there's brass there's muck

Actually, I did some brass and copper turning a couple of weeks ago, and the swarf from those two colours mixed is quite satisfying!

 

 

Edited By David Standing 1 on 22/11/2017 22:06:28

[Anonymous]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 22/11/2017 21:58:51:

I don't deny it's brass……………

I'd have never guessed it was brass, I assumed EN1A or similar. What were the rpm and feedrate?

Andrew

[Brian GParticipant @briang]

Personally, choosing a mini-lathe, in our case an ex-display model, "sold as seen" by Warco, was a matter of risk management. Having researched a little, we knew what problems and limitations we might encounter and the costs in time and money that could be involved. It needed adjustment (particularly the motor mounts – the belt slipped making a noise that caused me to remove the headstock to examine the gears), but once this was done, and some minor adjustments carried out it performs exactly as expected. When I needed to order parts and accessories all it took was a phone call and they were with me the next day. Yes, the speed controller could blow (although given the volume of these machines that are sold, the absence of advertisements for replacements suggests it is unlikely), in which case I would probably be looking for a scooter motor, but there is no guarantee on the motor of a second-hand machine either.

Looking at the number of articles on the web detailing improvements and corrections to the Chinese machines, it is possible to get the impression that they are all at best "kits", but then again, a quick look at the number of articles on Myfords to be found in ME over the last half-century could make you think the same thing. As far as quality is concerned, unsurprisingly the components aren't going to be the best that money can buy (in the Cromwell catalogue an 80mm 3-jaw chuck is more than half the price of a mini-lathe!), but at least they aren't worn out by 20+ years of 40 hour weeks.

Quite apart from the fact that my son wouldn't have got most ex-industrial machines upstairs, for us the risks of purchasing one outweighed the benefits. In most cases the machine cannot be seen (or perhaps more importantly heard) running, and if some of the machines I used in industry were anything to go by, a bed regrind costing more than the mini-lathe might have been the least of our worries. I wonder how many machines we would have needed to look at before finding one that is both cheap and good? Even minor things like missing change gears could add up at more than £10 each. assuming they can be found.

Brian

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 22/11/2017 21:58:51:

I don't deny it's brass, but it proves I'm not just an armchair machinist 😛

I would imagine it would prove quite a challenge to "machine" an entire armchair? A bit cold to sit in an EN1A seat as well.

I suppose I should use hot rolled stock to prevent the arm rests from bowing in the middle due to the internal stresses. 

Michael W

Edited By Michael-w on 23/11/2017 13:41:53

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