Used Lathe Pinnacle PL1340C Gap Bed

[Robert LaurensonParticipant @robertlaurenson59999]

Posted by Steviegtr on 14/05/2020 16:57:01:

Looking at the video & pictures. It is a lot of machine for the money. Not a hobby toy, but a industrial beast. Yes it needs a good clean & paint but would make a nice machine when done.

The motor is as said above is 2 speed. Suspect dual wound as the 4 pole config is 1400 rpm & a 2 pole is 2800. Your 3 phase supply should work fine on that motor. It is French & rating is 380volts , but should not matter.

Steve.

Thats the biggest issue, i have no 3 phase supply, is there any way to get that lathe working with a VFD? or a phase converter of some sort?

Thanks in advance
Robert

[Swarf MakerParticipant @swarfmaker85383]

That is a good motor configuration to have, but you do need to simulate a proper 400v 3 phase supply. As a general observation forget VFD's. A well specified rotary converter will serve very well for this. I have several 400v 3 phase machines with both single and two speed motors and a wide variation in power requirements. My 5HP rotary hums away quietly and serves all of the machines very adequately.

The headstock noise, along with the gearbox, driven as it is in that demo is typical 600 group lathe (Colchester/Harrison) noise – and usually noisier in reverse.

[OldironParticipant @oldiron]

Robert, One minute you say you have 3 phase and the next breath you say you do not. ???

If you are going into business it might be a good idea to look at what actual resources you have to work with.

It really does help people to help you if everyone is on the same page.

regards

[Robert LaurensonParticipant @robertlaurenson59999]

Posted by Oldiron on 14/05/2020 17:36:09:

Robert, One minute you say you have 3 phase and the next breath you say you do not. ???

If you are going into business it might be a good idea to look at what actual resources you have to work with.

It really does help people to help you if everyone is on the same page.

regards

Apologies, it was a moment of madness, what i have is a "Split Phase" supply, or single phase 3 wire, basically 2x single phase supplies, so not 3 phase
Not sure why i would've typed that, anyway.

I may have found a phase converter locally, just had a message after putting out a wanted ad.

[Robert LaurensonParticipant @robertlaurenson59999]

Hi again all

Ive been offered a transwave 5.5kw static converter, couple of miles from home for cheap, would that work?

Thanks

Robert

[Anonymous]

I'm a cynical old barsteward, but I wasn't overly impressed with the video. Obviously one can't cover all aspects, but a run in the lowest and highest speeds would have been good, along with some proper cuts.

I had a quick play with my Harrison M300 this evening. At 800rpm it's definitely noiser in reverse. But at 400rpm there's no difference and it was much quieter than the video. The speed in the video doesn't seem that high to me. When cutting there were horrible noises, although it's not clear if that's the lathe or poor material, tooling or technique.

Personally I'd either get someone to have a proper look, or walk away. The only upside is that on Shetland a boat anchor may possibly be of some use.

Andrew

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Posted by Robert Laurenson on 14/05/2020 17:44:27

Apologies, it was a moment of madness, what i have is a "Split Phase" supply, or single phase 3 wire, basically 2x single phase supplies, so not 3 phase
Not sure why i would've typed that, anyway.

I may have found a phase converter locally, just had a message after putting out a wanted ad.

If you have a two phase supply, it's possible to generate the third phase via a transformer arrangement.
I have two friends who use this for their workshops, and at least one of them has a dual speed motor on their lathe.
The load needs balancing to a degree, as it's possible for one of the meters to run backwards it it's an older non digital one. Not free electric though as the other meter speeds up to compensate, but it might cause problems with the billing.

If it's of interest, drop me a message containing a normal email address and I'll see if I can find the arrangement from my friend(s)

Bill

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

i'll post 2 comments. This one is to answer what you say. You have 2 single phase supplies. You need to look at these closely as I suspect they will both be of the same phase. Which means you have a single phase supply. end of. Yes a transverter will do the job so not a problem if you can get one locally, great it will do the job. They buzz a bit sometimes but definitely create a out of phase situation that works.  Back soon. Just going to watch that video again of the horrible noises Also to check your supply put a volt meter between the 2 lives coming in. It should read 415 ish. If they are the same phase it will read zero.

Steve.

Edited By Steviegtr on 15/05/2020 03:18:57

Edited By Steviegtr on 15/05/2020 03:19:07

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Ok so I have just watched the video again. Grab it with both hands before it has gone to someone else. That is a nice machine. I don't know what people are trying to put you off it for. There must be when new today £15 grands worth there. Your paying scrap for it.

Soon you will be truing up Fairline phantom shafts with it. Had a Fairline targa 34 for a while myself , with twin Volvo 200's, 3.5 lire 6 pots.Single turbo before they went to turbo + supercharger.  adq I think. With Hydraulic stern drives. 

All the best . Let us know the outcome.

Steve.

Edited By Steviegtr on 15/05/2020 03:24:24

[Robert LaurensonParticipant @robertlaurenson59999]

Posted by Steviegtr on 15/05/2020 03:16:37:

Ok so I have just watched the video again. Grab it with both hands before it has gone to someone else. That is a nice machine. I don't know what people are trying to put you off it for. There must be when new today £15 grands worth there. Your paying scrap for it.

Soon you will be truing up Fairline phantom shafts with it. Had a Fairline targa 34 for a while myself , with twin Volvo 200's, 3.5 lire 6 pots.Single turbo before they went to turbo + supercharger. adq I think. With Hydraulic stern drives.

All the best . Let us know the outcome.

Steve.

Edited By Steviegtr on 15/05/2020 03:24:24

I have already bought it, i know it sounds a bit squealy in reverse but i think its more the video and microphone being sensitive as he said (and i believe him) that there is no real difference in sound where he was, just trying to book shipping for it at the moment.

The 2 phases are coming in from a "split phase" transformer, taking the two phases from overhead, putting a meter across the two reads 445v, and each phase to neutral is 239. that is what i have, so any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[Robert LaurensonParticipant @robertlaurenson59999]

Steve

Just to say, the DNO people said when they were installing the power cable that it was a 2 phase supply, split 180 degrees apart on a center tapped transformer. hope thats of some help?

[Stuart Smith 5Participant @stuartsmith5]

What you will have is as you say, a transformer fed from a single phase (2 wire) HV overhead line.

A common neutral but with 2 single phase 230v ( but could be up to 253v ) live supplies 180 degrees apart. You would expect somewhere in the range 440 to 500 volts between them.

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Hello Robert,

I'm sure others on the forum know more about wiring to such a supply than I do.

But for what it is worth, since you do not have the third phase available with the supply arranged as it is, I suggest you run the lathe motor from the Transwave converter you have been offered, with that coupled to one of these two phases. In time, you may well want to run a second 3 phase machine, say a milling machine. You could then supply that from the same source. As a one man operation [I assume] you are very unlikely to be using power on both lathe and milling machine simultaneously.

The other phase can be used to supply a distributed load for lighting, heating and other power outlets within your workshop

Kind regards Brian

Edited By Brian Wood on 15/05/2020 09:15:55

[Chris Evans 6Participant @chrisevans6]

My 3 HP Excel lathe runs from a Transwave static inverter and has done for 8 years. On odd occasions it sounds "Wrong" turning the inverter of for a while and restarting cures it. Talk to Transwave to see if it would run a two speed motor, I have my doubts.

[Robert LaurensonParticipant @robertlaurenson59999]

Just spoken with transwave, they have said the static converter will run it, but it may not be all the speeds, or it may just run the motor on one speed and not the other, he also said if that doesnt work then put an idler motor between the static converter and the lathe, (which i can probably get used) and this would make the Lathe motor work as normal. so i think i will probably go for the static and try it out and see if it works.

[Ian ParkinParticipant @ianparkin39383]

Robert have you ascertained yet if the lathe is 2 speed?

[Robert LaurensonParticipant @robertlaurenson59999]

Posted by Ian Parkin on 15/05/2020 09:56:50:

Robert have you ascertained yet if the lathe is 2 speed?

Hi Ian,

Yes it is, there is a speed selector switch on the front down at the bottom, can see it on one of the Ebay photos.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

So I have just looked at your pictures again. The motor is 3hp on high speed & 2hp on low speed. As long as the transwave is rated at 3hp you should be able to run both speeds. The motor will be probably dual wound. If so it only uses one set of windings at a time. So total input would never be more than 3hp. Hope that makes sense.

Steve.

[Ian ParkinParticipant @ianparkin39383]

Posted by Stuart Smith 5 on 15/05/2020 09:04:32:

What you will have is as you say, a transformer fed from a single phase (2 wire) HV overhead line.

A common neutral but with 2 single phase 230v ( but could be up to 253v ) live supplies 180 degrees apart. You would expect somewhere in the range 440 to 500 volts between them.

Where does this supply come from ?

how do you get 2 phases 180 degrees apart?

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Hello Ian,

It will be much the same as the supply we had by overhead cable in the Yorkshire Dales when we lived there. The cottage lower down had two phases installed to even the load at the local transformer. One of these was used to power storage heaters, the other was used for standard domestic supply.. Our supply was an extension of one of these phases..

The neutral was of course common to both our properties

There were bullocks in the field over which the supply was carried on the usual poles and with the usual behaviour exhibited by a bunch of young bullocks, they managed to fell one of the power poles. The neutral broke and was left thrashing about on the ground like a snake, shedding sparks as it did.

In the meantime, below us someone was using their oven to cook breakfast and we got the full interphase voltage of 440v through our supply, there being no neutral left coupled. I recall it did a lot of superficial damage to radios, lights and other appliances that could not handle the sudden voltage surge.

These would of course have been phases 120 degrees apart, not 180.

Regards Brian

Edited By Brian Wood on 16/05/2020 09:44:44

[Ian ParkinParticipant @ianparkin39383]

So was Stuarts post a typo about 180 degrees and 500v between phases rather than 415v ?

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

'Two-phase' confuses the wotsits out of me, maybe because it's become a terminological inexactitude!

The original 2-phase system was 90° out of phase, but it's almost completely obsolete. As far as I know, doesn't exist in the UK.

A second possibility is 'split phase', ie single phase on the transformer input, and a 'neutral' centre-tapped winding on the output creating two live wires 180° apart. This is like the US system delivering 110V and 220V to the same house. (I think.)

The third possibility is as Brian describes, two phases and neutral run from a distant three-phase system. The two phases would be 120° apart.

Most of UK distribution is straightforward 3-phase and single phase. Two phase seems reserved for remote premises. Most of the farms round here get true 3-phase, but the smaller ones and isolated groups of a few houses in the boondocks often have some sort of 2-phase arrangement. I've not found anything that explains how '2-phase' works, either 120° or 180°. Does anyone know which system, or it both, is used in the UK?

Dave

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Ian and S.O.D,

I can only describe what happened in our case and I imagine the simplest way of setting up overhead supply as it was in our case would be a tapping off two phases in the village transformer. along with a neutral and run that on poles across the fields.

The sparking from the neutral where the broken cable was thrashing about in the field was quite impressive, it also attracted the attention of the stupid bullocks as you might imagine. It took a lot of arm waving to keep them off it.

Regards Brian

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, my younger brother (who lives in a town house) had two phases in his house when he bought it, the previous owners had panel heaters fitted and as Brian Wood has said, these were on one phase and all the rest of the house was on the other, he eventually had the second phase removed, as it was a higher standing charge and had proper C/H installed.

Most transformer type welders in industrial workshops are only wired across two phases out of three and where you get shops with two or more, they are usually balanced out over all three phases.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 16/05/2020 11:40:49

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

I've been running my workshop off one of the converted 10 hp Plug & Play 440 volt output single to 3 phase VFD units from Drives Direct for the last decade or more.

Expensive but it does what it says on the tin. For all practical purposes its the same as having proper 3 phase from the electric company. Albeit with rather low maximum power rating.

Drives Direct say it can start motors up to 5 hp and run up to 10 hp in total. I've had 9 hp running off mine. Start rating is probably true off load but I'd consider 3 hp a more appropriate maximum if things have to run up on load like my Smart & Brown 1024 lathe does due to not having a clutch. I'd definitely want to run a reciprocating compressor up unloaded. My compressor is a Hydrovane and the box it doesn't even blink when that cuts in. Does just fine on the old 3 hp two speed motor fitted to my wartime P&W model B despite(?) the wonderfully steam punk, true to period, oil immersed contactor system.

I splashed out on the smoothing inductor set supplied for CNC use. Drives Direct said that was unnecessary if just running motors but I'm happier without sharp transients floating around the shop.

Despite having built several I don't care much for static converters. OK when they work but if they lay back their ears and decide not to co-operate they can be major league frustrating. Best thing to do with one is to make it a pseudo rotary by hanging a big pilot motor on it. Transwave rotary converters work well but they do like a nice stiff mains input supply. Especially if running close to nominal capacity.

If installing a Transwave I'd use 1/2 nominal capacity as the maximum single motor load rather than the book 2/3 rds. 90% of the time book will do just fine but if it doesn't sorting the issue can be major league frustrating for folk without the rather special equipment needed. Basically you need to monitor phase current and relative shift as well as voltage and understand exactly how things interact. Easier to just over-rate a bit.

The last Transwave I had issues with would start, not start or run at half speed the motor on a hydrovane pretty much at random. Everything else in the workshop had run just fine right from first installation ten years back. Wired in, hit the switch and everything worked just like that. Couldn't have been easier. Re-wiring the supply back to the incomer with heavier cables almost sorted it but it still occasionally glitched and decided to run the compressor at half speed. Sorted with an inverter in the end. Totally idiot thing was that that particular compressor had been run just fine for several years via an identical Transwave rotary converter box in another workshop.

Bottom line with converters or plug'n play VFD boxes is don't shave the margins. Choose a decent brand, like Transwave,or known to be reliable supplier and buy a bit of extra margin so its certain to work even if your supply and set-up is less than ideal. I'd be chary of lower end offerings from folk like Machine Mart. Ordinary VFD boxes of decent brand seem to be bulletproof if rated power is the same as the motor tho' but they can't cope with two speed motors.

Clive

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