The Chocolate Fireguard as designed by Mercedes Benz

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

I stand corrected. Obviously just the cars i owned that never had more than 300mile range (or the way i drove them). In any event an 8hr drive still means stops unless you have a way younger bladder or a bottle between your legs

The run to ballachulish is all motorway so nice and relaxed in self-drive. Getna green might get one into range anxiety so a short stop at scotch corner and a long stop at abingdon to preload for the trip back and it's free fuel for me (that offer has expired). The fort william supercharger isn't active yet although there are heaps of pay-for slower chargers about.

[Martin Rock-EvansParticipant @martinrock-evans77799]

With all this talk of range, it reminds me that my poor old Spitfire was lucky to get 120 – 150 miles between fill-ups. We've all become used to the convenience of 140 or so years of internal combustion development. Give it a few more years of electric car and infrastructure development…

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Posted by pgk pgk on 08/05/2019 17:19:31:

I stand corrected. Obviously just the cars i owned that never had more than 300mile range (or the way i drove them). In any event an 8hr drive still means stops unless you have a way younger bladder or a bottle between your legs

The run to ballachulish is all motorway so nice and relaxed in self-drive. Getna green might get one into range anxiety so a short stop at scotch corner and a long stop at abingdon to preload for the trip back and it's free fuel for me (that offer has expired). The fort william supercharger isn't active yet although there are heaps of pay-for slower chargers about.

As stated in a previous post I'm legally required to stop every 2 hours to check my sugar levels so comfort breaks will be regular and I do carry a bottle for emergencies

Martin P

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

Posted by pgk pgk on 08/05/2019 17:19:31:

I stand corrected. Obviously just the cars i owned that never had more than 300mile range (or the way i drove them). In any event an 8hr drive still means stops unless you have a way younger bladder or a bottle between your legs

The run to ballachulish is all motorway so nice and relaxed in self-drive. Getna green might get one into range anxiety so a short stop at scotch corner and a long stop at abingdon to preload for the trip back and it's free fuel for me (that offer has expired). The fort william supercharger isn't active yet although there are heaps of pay-for slower chargers about.

Is it legal to use Self-Drive in the U.K? Or are you meaning driven by yourself?

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

Posted by pgk pgk on 08/05/2019 17:19:31:

I stand corrected. Obviously just the cars i owned that never had more than 300mile range (or the way i drove them). In any event an 8hr drive still means stops unless you have a way younger bladder or a bottle between your legs

The run to ballachulish is all motorway so nice and relaxed in self-drive. Getna green might get one into range anxiety so a short stop at scotch corner and a long stop at abingdon to preload for the trip back and it's free fuel for me (that offer has expired). The fort william supercharger isn't active yet although there are heaps of pay-for slower chargers about.

 

Is it legal to use Self-Drive in the U.K? Or are you meaning driven by yourself?

Edited By V8Eng on 08/05/2019 19:02:49

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by V8Eng on 08/05/2019 19:02:32:

Is it legal to use Self-Drive in the U.K? Or are you meaning driven by yourself?

Edited By V8Eng on 08/05/2019 19:02:49

The current level of 'autopilot' available UK is essentially traffic aware cruise control with self-steer and change lanes when signalled to do so. It's perfectly legal but requires the driver to be ready to take charge. Indeed the car has a nag function if you take hands off the wheel for long. the USA version has automatic overtake and off-on ramp changes between freeways. Some fools have been known to hang a weight on the wheel to simulate hands on.

There are certainly more advanced versions undergoing testing including traffic light and stop sign and cross traffic awareness.

At the level available to me one can relax more and monitor road ahead, screen in front for how the car is sensing the road but be ready if there is a potential situation.

https://youtu.be/tlThdr3O5Qo

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Well, I have said (for a few months now) to my wife, that If I won 50 grand on the lottery or Premium Bonds, I would order a new BEV. The Kona is the favourite, but Possibly the new Pogo 208 might fit the bill. Over 200 miles on the 208, nearer 300 for the Kona.

Don’t know the price of the Pogo, but t’other one would be a bit over 30 grand (3-4 grand less for the smaller battery version) It would likely see me out, as I usually only change my car when the old one is no longer economic (as in ready for the scrappie).

Driving reasonably steadily, I doubt the 480 mile trip to Drumnadrochit would need more than a single charge for the journey with the Kona – if the chargers were at convenient points on the way. More likely one charge and a ‘splash and dash.

It would take a fair amount longer than in the Pogo 607, and not quite so comfortable, but I don’t really bother about time, these days. Costs about 80 quid in fuel but that would be very much reduced in a BEV – possibly less than 20 one pound coins? (having to pay commercial recharge rate for one charge). A full home charge would cost about £7.50.

Edited By not done it yet on 08/05/2019 20:36:16

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by not done it yet on 08/05/2019 20:35:05:

…

It would likely see me out, as I usually only change my car when the old one is no longer economic (as in ready for the scrappie).

…

Be interesting to see how long electric cars last before they have to be scrapped. Apart from the battery, they are mechanically much simpler than an IC car and electric motors are famously reliable. No red hot multi-cylinder engine, valves, cams, turbo, catalyser, oil-pump, water pump, clutch, gearbox, differential, cv joint, filters, or fuel injection system to wear, leak or break. With a lightweight aluminium or carbon-fibre body, an electric car might outlast its owner.

In 50 years our descendents will be looking at a Ford Focus displayed in a museum next to Stephenson's Rocket. 'Golly, my grandad had one like that. How on earth did he work all those pedals and levers while going round corners. No wonder he kept hitting things…'

Dave

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

As a VW owner I am on the email news system, today I was sent info on the tie up between VW & Tesco for EV charging points.

As the thread has now drifted to EVs it might be of interest so I’ve put a link here.

EV Charging.

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

the EV database claims to give real world ranges on EV's **LINK**

Recharge costs on the road vary depending on the different charge Co's out there but you can guesstimate an average of 30p/KWh compared to home at around 15p (less if you have night metering). More important is charge rate the vehicle can take and the charge station can deliver. BP is said to be introducing 150KW charges on their forecourts (but haven't yet). Apart from the Tesla setup (currently delivers about 120KW will be software upgraded to 150KW and the next gen stations 250KW) the most likely best find en route are Chademo or CCS 50KW systems.

There are areas that offer free charging – most of Scotland if you apply for a card. Many hotels now provide destination chargers – 3.5-7KW usually but often free to patrons to plug in overnight though some will charge and you're always paying somehow even if by stealth.

[Colin HeseltineParticipant @colinheseltine48622]

I can get from Lichfield (Staffs) to Glasgow and back on less than one tank of diesel in my 2 ltr Mondeo and thats not hanging about at slow speeds. I can easily do the same in my diesel Renault Trafic with fuel to spare.

When you stop at any Motorway services and see the significant number of cars in the car parks how are they all going to be able to get charged. Even if you said only 20% required a top up charge that's still an awful lot of charging stations required. I have a feeling it would be like going back to the days of fuel rationing when you had to queue for ages for fuel and push your car till it reached the pump. I for one do not fancy sitting in the car gradually moving along in a queue to fill up with electric.

When I do a long journey I do not want to have to stop on the way. I fill up fully before I leave home and do not intend to fill up till return home. If I have to stop then a 5 minute pee stop is all I need.

Colin

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Clarkson managed to get an Audi A8 to do an 800 mile round trip an a tankful, probably got a bigger tank than some.

Mike

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

The solution to range extension has just struck me! Most long journeys involve a lot of motorway, so erect catenary over the inside lane, when you're getting a bit low, pull into the inside, up with the trolley poles and charge as you go. Modern control systems should be able to cope with getting the poles onto the wires on the move, and preventing you changing lanes and disengaging the poles (memories of trolley busses). If not have an area in the services where you can stop, engage the trolley poles then rejoin the motorway

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

PS Before I get a storm of derision, I'm not being totally serious, but it might work for HGVs

Edited By duncan webster on 09/05/2019 00:15:29

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Duncan,

You are behind the curve, Tests already carried out with convoys of driverless trucks on motorway sections and recharging on a some modified section of motorway, with an embedded rail for charging vehicles, in Norway/Sweden.

French were testing a section of road on which cars are charged while running along the track with induction charging, so no contact. 20kW was the charge rate, I believe, but these things are all being appraised.

The technology is already here – just very expensive to install – and development of possible means of charging on the move are being evaluated. It’s called research!

Have a look at this video:

**LINK**

VW’s new ID-3 BEV order books are now, or soon will be, open for their forthcoming all-electric offering.

Details here with approx pricing and range options. 350 mile range doesn’t seem too shabby for most ordinary motorists (from this thread, there are clearly exceptions).

**LINK**

**LINK**

The last three visits to and from Scotland (Drumnadrochit) have all been undertaken during the night and only take about 8 1/2 hours with one or two short stops – without exceeding the speed limits. One journey took rather longer because we had over an hour diversion when they closed about 4 miles, or less, of the A1 for highway maintenance. I currently prefer the east coast route to the M74 but that may change when the road works are done and dusted. First stop Edinburgh or Perth.

[doubletopParticipant @doubletop]

Posted by duncan webster on 09/05/2019 00:14:43:

PS Before I get a storm of derision, I'm not being totally serious, but it might work for HGVs

Edited By duncan webster on 09/05/2019 00:15:29

At the risk of undermining the serious debate going on here "Scalextric" rails? Stranger things have been tried.in the past. Atmospheric railways come to mind.

However, I am more interested in the planning for the immediate future rather than esoteric long-term options. It all seems a bit piecemeal at the moment, maybe Sainsburys can come up with a plan of their own?

[doubletopParticipant @doubletop]

The previous post was made 12sec before mine but I can't modify the Scalextric reference now. However, it does look like they are on to it….

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

Posted by duncan webster on 09/05/2019 00:14:43:

PS Before I get a storm of derision, I'm not being totally serious, but it might work for HGVs

Edited By duncan webster on 09/05/2019 00:15:29

There is already a prpopsal for induction coils (?) to be laid in the tarmac for additional boosting.

Regards

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

One of my past clients was an amateur historian and used to tell stories of the London to Croydon vacuum railway. Apparently the seal was tallowed leather so whenever they fired up the pumping station in the mornings all the rats chewing on the leather were sucked through and rained over Croydon. Apparently that was unpopular.

My own view is that EV;s will be a stepping stone to something better. What that will be and how far into the future is another guess but the only real solution is for folk to get over the stupidity of rampant consumerism and everyone being in a rush.

As for generating enough capacity for an all-electric transport system – the change over to that is decades away. Even if there was an eu-wide ban on non-electric vehicles there will be the mix of hybrids and the legacy ICE stuff. So a ban on all fossil powered cars 2040 still means hybrids for another 10 years and then 10years of them remaining on the roads and resistance from bulk transporters/oil co's pushing diesel HGV's another 10years.

Just think back to the tech changes of the last 50yrs. Maybe we'll find the graviton by then.

pgk

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Maybe the ICE vehicle was a stepping stone as well? Humans not smart enough to realise that, back in the 1900s. Since then humans have been too lazy to look ahead and invent a better replacement? Someone, back then, must have realised that fossil fuel was not being made any more?

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

When i was in school in the early 60's they told us we had coal for 400yrs in the british isles. For anyone with a long enough memory there was a TV series 'A for Andromeda' and part of the plot there was creating an organism that got into the ocean and pushed up CO2 to Terraform the planet for the aliens with all the consequences of such a CO2 rise. It was all known about – just ignored as not an issue for that term of office.

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

So to sum up on what I've read so far: My wife and I are stuffed, we are both in our sixties, my wife is an invalid and cant drive and we own a diesel car which is ten years old has low mileage and was going to see us out, we cannot afford any sort of new electric vehicle, we both have mobility scooters but cant/not allowed, no footpaths, to drive them on the roads and by the time the EV's become second hand they will require unaffordable, to me, battery packs, will have a limited range if I tow a trailer. We live in a village with a very limited bus service with five miles in any direction to buy the essentials which will cost us the earth because it will all have to be delivered. Whoopee

 

Martin P

Edited By martin perman on 09/05/2019 13:28:58

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Don’t be too downhearted.

Morris Minors are available with electric drive. Even they have a 45 mile range.

If of the appropriate type, mobility scooters can be registered and used on the road.

Lots of BEVs become second hand after three or four years – many lease them on PLP contracts and change vehicle at the end of the lease, so they will become available as numbers of new registrations arise.

Batteries tend to degrade, not fail, so the range decreases as they get the miles piled on. Main trouble is that those that are only going to lease them for three/four years don’t really care to look after the battery – they can rapid charge, charge to 100% as often as they want and don’t care if they discharge to a low state of charge before recharging – all things which will increase battery degradation.

ICE’s can fail, too. Often meaning the vehicle is sent to the scrappie, if over just a few years old. Replacement batteries will become cheaper, or be able to be repaired, as BEVs become more numerous and competition between menders/suppliers hots up a bit.

There will be a lot more choice in the second hand market when there are ten million of them on our roads. But by then people might just order up a vehicle, to arrive at their door at the prescribed time, they use and it takes itself away when you have finished with it.

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

Posted by martin perman on 09/05/2019 13:26:24:

So to sum up on what I've read so far: My wife and I are stuffed, we are both in our sixties, my wife is an invalid and cant drive and we own a diesel car which is ten years old has low mileage and was going to see us out, we cannot afford any sort of new electric vehicle, we both have mobility scooters but cant/not allowed, no footpaths, to drive them on the roads and by the time the EV's become second hand they will require unaffordable, to me, battery packs, will have a limited range if I tow a trailer. We live in a village with a very limited bus service with five miles in any direction to buy the essentials which will cost us the earth because it will all have to be delivered. Whoopee

Martin P

Edited By martin perman on 09/05/2019 13:28:58

A proposed phase out of new diesel and petrol powered cars by 2030 will mean there will still be a substantial number of 'not new' vehicles on the roads – oil companies are not going to risk profit losses until the last possible minute so petrol and diesel fuels will be available probably up to around 2050.

By then I'll be in my nineties and probably not driving anyways, and all the time future propulsion will be being developed.

Did read somewhere a while back that Ford and GM were working on a carbon neutral 'steam engine' – I wonder if thats still in the pipeline.

What I think might happen is that 'diesel' as it is currently will be replaced by a new cleaner fuel based on peanut / rapeseed oils etc, or even Algae based fuel **LINK**

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by martin perman on 09/05/2019 13:26:24:

So to sum up on what I've read so far: My wife and I are stuffed, we are both in our sixties, my wife is an invalid and cant drive and we own a diesel car which is ten years old has low mileage and was going to see us out, we cannot afford any sort of new electric vehicle, we both have mobility scooters but cant/not allowed, no footpaths, to drive them on the roads and by the time the EV's become second hand they will require unaffordable, to me, battery packs, will have a limited range if I tow a trailer. We live in a village with a very limited bus service with five miles in any direction to buy the essentials which will cost us the earth because it will all have to be delivered. Whoopee

Martin P

Edited By martin perman on 09/05/2019 13:28:58

Me too, but can I ask what the plan is when you eventually become too old or ill to drive yourself? At that point the IC vs EV debate becomes irrelevant.

Thing is, given time to adapt, people manage. Large numbers of people who need to travel but can't afford a car will revitalise public transport. We've been there before, Before the car, most shops delivered, and we're headed back that way – the high-street is currently being devastated because people prefer to buy online and have stuff delivered.

My car certainly isn't essential. I suspect it would be cheaper for me to travel everywhere by taxi. Instead I pay a lot of money for the convenience of keeping a car ready for action.

I hate change. It's only necessary because something has gone wrong. Someone always gets hurt on the way. Don't panic though, I think your diesel should last you out. The shift to electric is going to take a few decades.

Listened to a couple of politicians discussing carbon tax on the radio last week. The conservative minister and his labour shadow were in agreement. Both took the line that consumers are not paying the full cost of carbon at the moment and that they should in future. Thing is, every time we burn something, the effluvia damages health, and the environment, and contributes to global warming which is causing floods and agricultural damage. Timescale for change – between 2025 and 2040. I think that means most of us could buy a new IC car today and expect to get decent use out of it. By 2025 the same decision might be distinctly unwise, and it could be unthinkable by 2040.

Predicting the future is almost impossible, but I'd expect private car owners living in cities and particularly polluted towns to get whacked first, diesel before petrol. Then, discouragement spreading out depending on how bad – or not – the local problem is. I predict many exemptions, for example I doubt farmers will ever be told to scrap their IC vehicles and no doubt the disabled and elderly will be considered.

Who knows what's going to happen next – the UK economy might nosedive, US vs China might disrupt world trade, and perhaps catastrophic climate change will make motoring the least of humanities problems. Or AI will mean that no-one needs to work, and all manufacturing will be local. More likely, the future will still be comfortable, but there's no doubt it will be different.

Dave

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