Teflon Spray ?

[chris jParticipant @chrisj]

I just gave my son a couple of tools and as I gave them to him I said give them a spray of WD40 and keep them in the bag.

He looked at me with a condecending smile (I'm getting used to those) and said "that's a bit old school, in the cycling word nobody uses WD40 everyone uses Teflon spray"

What does the panel think ?

[chris jParticipant @chrisj]

[David LittlewoodParticipant @davidlittlewood51847]

I always thought WD-40 was a teflon spray; certainly several of the similar sprays I have used over the years have been.

However, WD-40* is crap at rust proofing (and most other things; not bad for driving water off ignition leads, which is what (IIRC) it was first made for). Teflon is a low-friction polymer, and also has zero rust-proofing qualities. Tell him to wipe them with Ensis rust proofing oil instead.

David

[FilParticipant @fil]

I am a (sadly) Ex cyclist and agree with your son. Teflon spray is the thing for bike chains and similar. I've always found WD40 (and 3 in 1 oil) OK for emergency use but neither last long and soon wash off.

I know it sounds extravagant, but I always try to use the specialist product for the job rather than the release/waterproof/do everything else claims of these products. Its cheaper in the long run as the application last longer and I believe so does the item you apply it to.

By the way, does anyone know if you can still buy Genklene, or have the health and safety people banned it? I have tried Amberklene ( because it sounds so similar) it seems to do a reasonable job of degreasing, but not as good as Genklene and it doesn't smell as potent !

Fil

[_Paul_Participant @_paul_]

Isn't Teflon more of an anti-friction/anti-stick agent?, my boss uses it on his desk….anything that lands there immediately ends up with me….

For a rustproofing IMHO a good mineral oil is better, Tesco Baby oil works well smells lovely too

Paul

[pcb1962Participant @pcb1962]

Posted by Fil on 07/09/2012 13:13:41:

By the way, does anyone know if you can still buy Genklene, or have the health and safety people banned it?

I believe Genklene was just carbon tetrachloride, aka dry cleaning fluid – long since banned from sale to ordinary people. I tend to use acetone for jobs where I used Genklene is the past.

[Gray62Participant @gray62]

WD40 is most definitely NOT a silicone based product. It was envisaged as a water displacing and penetrating product – nothing more.

It;s coating and surface retention properties are very limited. We used a similar product in the military and always followed up treatment with a 'barrier' product.

In essence WD40 or similar has its place but.. for corrosion prevention, it is not the correct product.

There are many other products on the market which are specifically targeted at corrosion prevention.

CB

[David LittlewoodParticipant @davidlittlewood51847]

Like I said right up at the top – Shell Ensis.

David

[mgjParticipant @mgj]

Well WD40 bonds at a molecular level with the substrate and displaces water. I use it squirting a blast into cylinders to prevent water rusting the bore. You know it will bond with hte base iron very aggressively.

But its not a lubricant as such, as Coal burner said. Teflon is,

 

Will WD40 prevent rust – very effectively, and for years. Obviously Because if a molecule has had its bonds taken up with a non oxidising agent, they are not available to be taken up by oxygen atoms.In principle at least. Thats pretty basic chemistry – and most oils don't work that way – they just coat (or that used to be true, less so now).

However before one says Teflon is this and something else is that, one wants to know what the properties of the carrier are. – since in general teflon will reprent a very small proportion of the total volume. So before saying the one stuff is better than another, one really wants to look at the tech spec, and see what it was made to do, and use it for that purpose.

Edited By mgj on 07/09/2012 18:46:56

[nigel jones 5Participant @nigeljones5]

Ive tried coating my lathe etc in wd40 to stop rust and it did nothing.

[Billy MillsParticipant @billymills]

According to the Manufacturer's MDS for WD40 it is a mix of white spirit, light machine oil and an odoriser. ( this is a MDS from some years back, the more recent sheets use more exotic terms) No PTFE or anything else.

So it can lubricate and displace water and has a nicer smell than plain white spirit and 3-in-one oil. It can "penetrate" nooks and cranies and then leave a little lubricant behind after the volatiles have gone. However it can also flush out heavier oils and greases (oils with soap) which might then need replacing.

There is also the little detail of flamability, is it a good idea to spray cloth with white spirit then put it away in a confined space? As others have said there are far better corrosion protections than WD40.

Billy.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I always used Teflon based spray on my Bikes, GT85 to be precise more for the fact that it is not sticky when dry and therfore does not collect dirt & dust which you get a lot of on mountain bikes in the summer. It also has a very nice smell.

I find that WD40 leaves a sticky film after a while that takes a bit of shifting, I thought it was a fish oil base.

J

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

mgj quote – "Well WD40 bonds at a molecular level with the substrate and displaces water. I use it squirting a blast into cylinders to prevent water rusting the bore. You know it will bond with hte base iron very aggressively.

But its not a lubricant as such, as Coal burner said. Teflon is,

Will WD40 prevent rust – very effectively, and for years. "

Absolute nonsense and totally opposite to what I have experienced with WD40 over the last 30 years. I would not spray that crap anywhere inside any engine I didn't want to ruin. It is not suitable as a rust preventative. It will displace engine oil from an IC engine's piston rings and when that proper engine oil is gone the rings will run dry on startup, which is very dangerous to them and the bores.

It is OK to lube your garden shears and OK for drying out plug wires on cars but that is about it.

For preserving tools or engines long term I have found 90 weight gear oil applied with a brush, or engine storage/preservative "fogging" oils in a spray can work best.

JD

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

I often see Ensis mentioned on forums. Usually followed by laments that it is only available in 10 gallon drums. Maybe certain traders on here might care to make sensible sizes available.

[chris jParticipant @chrisj]

Posted by Bazyle on 08/09/2012 00:00:28:

I often see Ensis mentioned on forums. Usually followed by laments that it is only available in 10 gallon drums. Maybe certain traders on here might care to make sensible sizes available.

True, I tried to find a small quantity this afternoon but failed miserably.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

One trouble with oil on tools is your hands then get covered in it.. Anyone considered Vaseline. I know it is also petroleum based but unlike EP90 I'm prepared to put it on chapped lips so not so bad as engine oil type products.

My ideal product would be candle wax disolved in something but common solvents don't seem to work. Any ideas?

[John McNamaraParticipant @johnmcnamara74883]

Hi All

In a previous business manufacturing soft furnishings we had a lot of sewing machines, in particular a CNC driven quilting machine. This machine used a singer 132 class sewing head, with a rotary hook about 50mm in diameter. this hook was very difficult to lubricate, run continuously via CNC we kept burning out hooks (The part that picks the thread off the needle and holds the bobbin under the table). Conventional light viscosity oils would be swept away and the hook bearing surfaces were damaged, quite an expensive part to replace.

Teflon filled oil was tried and we never looked back. in use the Teflon forms a coating on the bearing surfaces. we never burnt another hook.

Cheers
John McNamara

Edited By John McNamara on 08/09/2012 03:55:53

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

All the synthetic oils/grease form an affinity with the base metal. Teflon and PTFE are excellent lubricants and will fill the smallest cavities in metal and then the dirt and abrasive materiel which is then pushed out.

This leaves a very smooth surface and will make any motion easier as per Johns report with the needles.

I have a PTFE spray that I put on my woodwork saw bench and planer and it makes the wood slide easily, it sets hard and makes a slippery surface. Quite expensive though.

I would change over to synthetics if I could afford it !

Clive

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Bazyle on 08/09/2012 00:16:23:

One trouble with oil on tools is your hands then get covered in it.. Anyone considered Vaseline. I know it is also petroleum based but unlike EP90 I'm prepared to put it on chapped lips so not so bad as engine oil type products.

My ideal product would be candle wax disolved in something but common solvents don't seem to work. Any ideas?

Your local Dispensing Chemist would probably supply a 50/50 mixture of Paraffin Wax and Liquid Paraffin … this is commonly prescribed to help those with skin complaints.

MichaelG.

[mgjParticipant @mgj]

Obviously your rust is different from mine. Keeps bores perfecty clean and stops rings sticking. But like all of the lighter low viscosity materials, its best if left alone and not rubbed off. Still if people don't like WD40, they would be better off using something else. At the end of the day, all that most of these oils do is provide a simple barier between oxygen and air.

If I wanted to keep tools and the like clear for extended periods then I'd use a proper ph controlled preservative grease like the military PX7. Or something really heavy like chainsaw oil because that really sticks and you will need white spirit degrese properly, but it isn't ph controlled.

 

Incidentally Geoff, I didn't think that an IC engines rings depended much on oil. A lot of IC engines have oil scraper rings precisely to remove (almost ) all of the oil from the bore. The advantage of WD40 in those circumstances is that it removes the old oil possibly – darned good thing – it will be acidic, and contain a fair proportion of fuel, (up to 10-15% by volume for a relatively unworn engine, more for an old design) and replace it with a fresh light preservative, which will stop them sticking. But of course one doesn't then want to turn the engine over.

 

What happens when you use the choke/ECU on start up, if the rich mix doesn't wash the bore clear, or nearly so?

Edited By mgj on 08/09/2012 09:21:04

[David LittlewoodParticipant @davidlittlewood51847]

The OP was asking about hand tools kept in a bag, and was presumably concerned about rust-proofing, not lubrication.

David

[David LittlewoodParticipant @davidlittlewood51847]

Posted by John McNamara on 08/09/2012 03:53:13:

Teflon filled oil was tried and we never looked back. in use the Teflon forms a coating on the bearing surfaces. we never burnt another hook.

Teflon is a solid polymer plastic, and when used as a lubricant as in these sprays is present in minute particles. One of its main qualities is not sticking to anything, so it is hard to imagine how it "forms a coating" to protect surfaces. In reality the solid particles will lubricate with moderate effectiveness just as long as the sticky carrier gums it in place, and not a moment longer. If you want something which bonds to the metal surface and forms a long-lasting lubricating layer you need a formula containing molybdenum disulphide or similar.

David

[mgjParticipant @mgj]

One of the reasons many of these products don't perfom as well as one might expect, and others seem to get them to work well, is because occasionally people don't think about what the material is doing and how it works. It is important to use them intelligently,

If you have a thin type penetrating oil which disperses water out of a crack. (WD, 3 in 1 and many others) thats grand, but the water hasn't gone away (as a matter of principle) Its simply moved elsewhere. Eventually the oil will float (depending on evaporation rates of the wateretc etc.)

So the trick, in watery conditions like the bore of a steam engine, or tools in a poly bag full of damp air, is to dry the water off and respray. (With say a loco, its easy – pump the stuff in, spin the wheels a few times, and then respray, and no risk of a cylinder full of heavy oil creating a hydraulic lock next time. )

——

Again, I think it most unwise to say what will or won't stick to what, not unless one actually knows the subject. The chemists these days really have their act together, and just because a material is ostensibly slippery, it doesn't mean to say that it won't stick to something, using electrical bonds and the like. For instance preservative greases can look the same as any other grease, but have very poor charactristics under load. Some oils can be very good at rejecting water, cling to surfaces but reject small particles, and not be made of "oil" at all, but for example glycol.

So generalisations can be – misguided or possibly just out of date.

[MICHAEL WILLIAMSParticipant @michaelwilliams41215]

The only effective water removal oils or other liquids for use on a relatively large scale contain additives which either take the water into solution or into colloidal suspension . The most common of these additives is liquid soap . Actual liquid soap will work but most commercial products have specially developed additives with controlled acid levels and other desireable properties .

These additives can be seen in action in ordinary soluble oil . Soluble oil is in any case a good water removal agent . Mix it as a strong concentrate and apply to wet surface whereon it takes in surplus water . Wipe away or drain off and the water will be gone leaving a slight oiliness on surface . There are commercial products which work this way but with various specialised properties for particular tasks .

At a smaller laboratory scale there are ether soap (like) products and special reagents for removing water from surfaces . These are important where any trace water could upset a chemical reaction or analysis and in optical work for getting lenses , mirrors and prisms super clean .

WD40 was developed originally for use in the Atlas missile programme . It was intended as an ' instant maintenance spray ' which blew and sloshed away dirt , dust and general goo and left a slight protective oiliness on surfaces .

On a more general note large companies have made and lost fortunes trying to get PTFE based coatings to stick to things . Chemical bonding is achievable via intermediate layers or additives but both originally and to this day many coatings have been basically fixed mechanically by treating the substrate so that it has a porous surface and then getting the coating to form millions of tiny atachments keyed in to the holes .

Regards ,

Michael Williams .

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by Bazyle on 08/09/2012 00:16:23:

One trouble with oil on tools is your hands then get covered in it..

When I started metalwork lessons at school (in 1961) we had to rub a few spots of oil onto our hands on entering the workshop to avoid rusty fingerprints on tools and machines. A practise I still stick to and I have very little problem with rust here.

Russell

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