Sulphuric acid

[David LittlewoodParticipant @davidlittlewood51847]

Clive,

AIUI, the propellant is mostly nitro-cellulose (guncotton), though some recipes may nitroglycerine and other additives such as nitroguanidine. (Actually, for the terminally geeky, "nitroglycerine" isn't actually nitroglycerine either, it's glyceryl trinitrate – nitro compounds have a C-NO2 structure, whereas nitrate esters have a C-O-NO2 structure). However, it is probably toxic in the same way; IIRC most organic nitrates are powerful vasodilators.

And yes, I also had to hand in my pistol – only in ~1998, as I only had a .22 Hammerli. Still miss it, though I was never a very good pistol shot, preferred the rifle.

David

Edited By David Littlewood on 27/08/2012 23:31:23

[David LittlewoodParticipant @davidlittlewood51847]

Neil,

SCAYT?

I think glycerin is the German spelling. Everyone knows that people in the USA can't spell for toffee anyway.

Potassium permanganate is readily available on eBay and elsewhere; it is frequently used for staining wood. It used to be used for treatment of athlete's foot, may still be for all I know.

David

[AndyfParticipant @andyf]

We were after impressive bangs, rather than fires, Neil. We didn't get further than weedkiller and icing sugar, and that was getting a bit tricky because (if I remember rightly) it can ignite spontaneously. One of the gang was known as Copperknob, after a bit of shrapnel from the device he made of gunpowder packed into a length of plumbing pipe (known as a pipe bomb nowadays, I think) was surgically removed from his member. Happily, he went on to father several children in later life.

David, I too had to surrender my .22 pistol, an S&W Model 41. Not too big a wrench, though, because I couldn't hit the town I lived in with it, and like you I am more of a rifle shooter. Also, it cost me £80 secondhand, and the £800 I received six years later softened the blow somewhat.

Andy

[David LittlewoodParticipant @davidlittlewood51847]

Andy,

I think it was a WW2 general who said most soldiers he had known couldn't hit the sea from an open boat with a handgun. I recall another said that, in all his long military career, he had only known of 2 people hit by shots from handguns, and they were both on the same side as the shooter.

David

[Geoff TheasbyParticipant @geofftheasby]

I remember reading once that the gunfights of the old Wild West as shown in films were mostly myth, since the handguns were so inaccurate the duellists had to be virtually nose to nose if they were to hit each other. Wyatt Earp's Buntline special had a very long barrel for that very reason.

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

I had a .22 hammerli like David and a further collection of guns, a Smith and Wesson K38 Masterpiece and then a Ruger Redhawk.44 Magnum.

Also had a Ruger Mini14 .223 and a Ruger .308 M77.

I reloaded for all the guns except .22rimfire.

All gone now sadly. It was my main hobby apart from the bees then. Maybe why I am so deaf ! I too got a good return on the guns when handed in.

Anyway, nitro powder kills slugs and snails dead !

Clive

 

Edited By Clive Hartland on 28/08/2012 08:04:28

[MICHAEL WILLIAMSParticipant @michaelwilliams41215]

Clive ,

Do you think that the legends about the exceptional accuracy of the American pioneer days ' Nail driver ' long gun have any truth in them ?

Regards ,

Michael Williams .

[Gordon WParticipant @gordonw]

Iff you read any biographies of the old west outlaws most were nasty killers and all used shotguns.

[Geoff TheasbyParticipant @geofftheasby]

Oops! The Buntline Special was fictional, I now discover, although there were long-barrelled handguns about at the time. That will teach me to do my research first!

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Theres a (now)funny story about guns in my family.Can’t remember the year, but theQueen Mother was visiting NZ.There was a fire arms amnisty at the time, and my Grandfather desided his had to go, a Webly service pistol,a Mills bomb, a German grenade, ammo for the pistol, and I’m not sure but I think there was a German pistol. Off goes Grandpa, it’s about 2 miles to the army depot, and on the way is the crowd to greet the QM, imagine that happening today!!! Ian S C

[Cornish JackParticipant @cornishjack]

The tales of hand gun inaccuracy are quite reassuring!!

One of the PsITA of my 35 years in the RAF was the annual requirement for range practice. We were issued with S&W or Colts and on one notable occasion myself and 'oppo' were on the range for 10 metre 'double tap'. Once completed the scores were announced .. Me – zilch, 'oppo' – 7 out of 6!!! I always claimed that I would be more lethal throwing the thing!

Rgds

bill

[Chris CourtneyParticipant @chriscourtney72250]

My late Father joined the RAF just prior to WW2 and used to recount his experience of side arm training. A veteran Sergent addressed the assembled office cadets along the following lines:

"Gentlemen, this is a Webley revolver. If you are ever confronted by the enemy I suggest you throw it at them, because it is the only way you are likely to hit them"

It seems to be in line with Cornish Jack's experience!

Chris

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

There is a lot of controversy about handgun accuracy, I had a Ruger Blackhawk in the 60's that would shoot a 2" group at 25 yards, in fact I shot myself with it. It was a wet afternoon and the sand backstop had grooves cut by bullets and there was water in them and as I fired, the .44magnum bullet richocheted off the water and up to the brick backstop and flew back at me and I saw it coming all the way and it hit me on my left shoulder and just luckily left a bruise 2" in dia.

With the Ruger Redhawk I often fired it at a 100yards and was able to get 3" groups of five shots.

The load was a 240gn bullet and 7grains of Unique powder. When I was in Kenya my friend who was a gunsmith would shoot game to eat and would shoot gazelle in the head at 50yards with a Ruger Blackhawk, the reason being if he hit in the body the hydrostatic shock turned the meat into red jelly.

The Smith and Wesson K38 Special would shoot 2" groups with Wadcutters all the time with reduced loads.

Regarding the service revolvers, they fired the .380 S&W which is a FMJ bullet and is low powered and they would often stick in the barrel. In fact there is a photo of an x-ray showing 5 bullets lodged in the barrel of a service revolver.

Going back to the .44 magnum, I have fired full factory loads (Norma FMJ bullets) the recoil is some 12ft lb and I find it manageable but by preference I down load to a cast lead gas check bullet of 240gn.Much more accurate and manageable.

Clive

[Swarf, Mostly!Participant @swarfmostly]

Posted by Clive Hartland on 28/08/2012 14:37:50:

SNIP

by preference I down load to a cast lead gas check bullet of 240gn.Much more accurate and manageable.

Clive

I thought cast lead was for the inside of Synchronome pendulum bobs?

Best regards,

Swarf, Mostly!

[David LittlewoodParticipant @davidlittlewood51847]

Clive,

I'm sure you – and a lot of keen pistol shots – could achieve that kind of accuracy, but the military people who probably only got to fire a few shots in training, if that, would have found it very much more difficult to hit anything.

PS – I think you mean the muzzle energy of the .44 Mag is 1200 ft.lbs – 12 is the legal limit for air rifles! Certainly 1200 is the figure I have in my memory. I gather quite a few in the USA like long range target shooting with 0.5" BMG rifles at 12,000 ft lbs – now that's what you call a stopper.

David

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

David, I just checked and the recoil is 18.5ft lb and the muzzle energy is stated at 1350ft lb.

To err is human, its been some years since i had the gun.

Clive

[David LittlewoodParticipant @davidlittlewood51847]

Clive,

Sorry, I misread your post – you said recoil, I read muzzle energy; my fault.

David

[Geoff TheasbyParticipant @geofftheasby]

I don't think the average squaddie is intended to hit anything, just be able to place lots of bullets in the general area. Only snipers hit anything. That's why the normal sort of assault rifle isn't very accurate. When you are being shot at, you keep your head down, that stops you seeing what's going on and you can't shoot back. That's what's supposed to happen.

[David LittlewoodParticipant @davidlittlewood51847]

Listened to an interesting programme on ammunition on Radio 4 last night (which they most annoyingly insisted on referring to as "bullets". It was suggested that the switch to 5.56 mm was made in cold war days, in anticipation of a European war with lots of close fighting and for which a range of 3-400 m would be fine. This was proving to be quite unsuitable for an Afghanistan-type conflict, and they were having to take 7.62 mm machine guns and rifles out of store to be able to engage, with some hope of accuracy, at long ranges.

If you missed it, you can hear the programme (for the next week) on the Radio 4 listen again facility. Some interesting stuff about making the ammunition.

David

Edited By David Littlewood on 29/08/2012 11:35:31

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

The best form of defence is attack ! The modern Infantry now train in that method.

Accuracy of an assault rifle is not in question as the ballistics of the round dictate its application. Blasting off into the blue is not recommended and from my own experience does not happen as a target is indicated and firepower applied.

The military .308 is a very good round and will reach out to 4 to 500 mtrs with accuracy and the .223 ( the current mil. round) has a 9" rise and fall over 300 meters. What is in question is the terminal effect of the rounds, the .308 will stop a man and the .223 will in fact go through him but will incapacitate him. The idea is that it takes 3 more men to look after one injured man.

In preference I would choose the .308 and has always been my round of choice and I have fired a lot of different calibres.

The Kalashnikov round is also 7.62 but has different ballistics and terminal effects, it still kills and is very effective but in untrained hands is innacurate. The bullet has a steel core encased in lead and cupro nickel, this causes tumbling on impact.

The current sniper round is the Norma .338 and has enormous impact at extended ranges, hence the long range kills being quoted of up to 1800mtrs. Here, at those distances aiming off is needed and a spotter is always employed to give accurate info. to the shooter.

Clive

[VicParticipant @vic]

I use Sulphuric Acid drain cleaner to clean the shower trap once in a while. It says on the bottle Sulphuric Acid w/w 91% and seems pretty strong. Is there a cheaper source of supply anyone knows of as it's about £10 a litre from B&Q these days.

[Boiler BriParticipant @boilerbri]

What are you wanting to use if for Vic?

Brian

[John BaguleyParticipant @johnbaguley78655]

I get 96% sulphuric acid from APC Pure:

**LINK**

Probably cheaper if you want something like 2.5 ltrs (£11.95). Only problem is the carriage is a bit expensive (£8?) as it has to be sent by courier but not bad if you want a few items. They also sell citric acid in bulk quantities and other hard to get chemicals. Very fast delivery as well.

John

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Posted by Geoff Theasby on 29/08/2012 11:08:57:

I don't think the average squaddie is intended to hit anything, just be able to place lots of bullets in the general area. Only snipers hit anything. That's why the normal sort of assault rifle isn't very accurate. When you are being shot at, you keep your head down, that stops you seeing what's going on and you can't shoot back. That's what's supposed to happen.

I guess you weren't in the army? The average British soldier is trained to achieve one shot one kill or used to be when I had the privilege of serving.

Tony

[herbert punterParticipant @herbertpunter99795]

Posted by Tony Pratt 1 on 30/10/2015 20:58:58:

Posted by Geoff Theasby on 29/08/2012 11:08:57:

I don't think the average squaddie is intended to hit anything, just be able to place lots of bullets in the general area. Only snipers hit anything. That's why the normal sort of assault rifle isn't very accurate. When you are being shot at, you keep your head down, that stops you seeing what's going on and you can't shoot back. That's what's supposed to happen.

I guess you weren't in the army? The average British soldier is trained to achieve one shot one kill or used to be when I had the privilege of serving.

Tony

What has any of this rubbish got to do with sulphuric acid?

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