Steam Raising Coal

[SteamcoalnzParticipant @steamcoalnz]

What is the preferred steam raising coal that UK model engineers use for 5" and 7 1/4' locomotives?

I have purchased a quantity of Welsh Anthracite beans for my locomotive to ship to New Zealand. For several years we have used coal purchased from Signal Fuels and ask if the new product is still the good quality from the past.

Is there good Anthracite coal and poor quality product?

What is the difference between Welsh Dry Steam Coal and Anthracite steam coal?

Appreciate your information.

[SteamcoalnzParticipant @steamcoalnz]

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

hi,

anthracite is fine. it has the highest heat content when burnt compared to other coal, but requires a harder blast on the fire (or a touch of the loco steam blower, unless the loco is being worked hard) and can be difficult to light if you dont have a powerful electric blower fan and arent used to it. UK anthracite comes from western edge of the coal seams in south wales and is pretty consistent in its quality. some seams mined were of 'soft anthracite' more akin to welsh steam coal semi bitumous coal – you might get this depending how old the stock of coal is from which ever merchant you bought it.

anthracite wasnt used in fullsize due to it being the most expensive of coal and supply being insufficient for the railway's demands in years gone by.

welsh steam coal is only available these days from the Ffros y Fran opencast site near Merthyr Tydfil, and is of variable quality depending on what bit of the site is being worked on at any one time. proper welsh steam coal is relatively light in weight, and friable, easy broken by hand, irregular, and shiny. i suppose there is a bit of an art to firing with it and different techniques are required for different types of firebox.

ive got about 3/4 ton of anthracite beans at home but dont use it on my locos as i find the smell and smoke really chokes me up badly after a day's steam up. it gets at the back of your throat and most people find it quite unpleasant.

steam coal proper hasnt been mined on a large commercial basis in south wales since about 1991/2.

i would have said (from what my club obtained in the last few years) that the Signal Fuels stuff was soft anthracite (probably from Tower Colliery before it closed) rather than proper welsh steam coal. i wasnt that impressed with it!

occasionally one of the private drift mines gets to a seam of good welsh steam coal and word goes round and it quickly gets 'earmarked' and purchased by those clubs in the know. however this doesnt happen very often.

when you've used the proper stuff nothing else compares! luckily ive a shed full of the stuff!

cheers,

julian

[SteamcoalnzParticipant @steamcoalnz]

Julian.

Thank you.

I just talked to the chap at The Coal Man and he told me that Welsh Dry is best for 7 1/4" and traction engines while Anthracite is best for smaller 5" locos. The Welsh Dry is easier on the boiler, but not so hot he said.

I have fired my 5" Railmotor with the Signal Anthracite beans and it goes well. She certainly picks up under a load and just goes better and better, with exhaust draw as you say.

So…. your "proper stuff' is Welsh Dry Steam coal, not Anthracite. Correct?

Compared to what we have in this country it is all good…and some burn domestic house coal!!

Hayden

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

hi Hayden,

yes, the 'proper stuff' is welsh (dry) steam coal.

i dont necessarily agree that 5" and 3.5"g locos run better on anthracite – however if in 'bean' size it saves breaking up lumps of welsh steam coal into pieces of the correct size. even sized coal with regular air gaps promotes far better and efficient combustion.

in fullsize there was the famous occasion when GWR Castle PENDENNIS CASTLE burnt her firebars in 1964 on a special run, due to an ill-informed manager thinking he would get the very best coal for the special run but it turned out to be anthracite!

cheers,

julian

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

incidentally The Coal Man at Edenham will get his welsh steam coal via the agents that deal with FFros y Fran opencast site near Merthyr Tydfil

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

haydenkiwinz, where in NZ are you? We actually have coal in NZ, the Royal Navy sailed around the world to get good west coast coal for their ships! Ian S C

[Llongford RailwayParticipant @llongfordrailway]

I think sometimes it is a trial and error approach as each engine has its own demands and temperments. I use anthracite but have my own supply of welsh steam coal and house coal at home. I personally put a lump or two of house coal on every now and again when running but mainly run on anthracite. I have found little different between anthracite and steam coal except more of a "authentic" smell. I like the look and smell of house coal but some clubs can be funny about these things but it is generally not a problem. I know a chap who runs his engine solely on house coal. I think his boiler tubes and chimney are cleaned after every run but the sight and smell is fantastic!

Daniel

[SteamcoalnzParticipant @steamcoalnz]

Ian S C.

I am in Timaru, South ISland.

I read on Google an historic document about the NZ Steam Coal and how it was as good if not better than the Welsh stuff. Maybe related to the same info you have. Must have been a naval expedition.

But where is it and how do we get at it?

Personally it is easier for me and my fellow model loco engineers to source it from the UK. For me it is like ordering Fish and Chips , just takes two months to arrive but apart from that it is no problem.

Considering the desperate situation that the clubs are going to to find good steaming coals and the price they are paying for Char from Australia, resorting to BBQ briquettes, house coal etc there must be a need. Hopefully I can help.

P.M me if you wish.

Hayden

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Hayden, I live in Darfield, and we get about 12000 ton of West coast coal through here most days, 1500 ton per train. Unfortunately you can't collect much along the tracks these days as the waggons have a cover on them now, when I first came here in 1984, the coal was transported in open topped 4 wheel waggons, and it was easy to fill a bucket in 100 yards, a year or so ago they took about 18 inches of coal out of the Otera tunnel.

It would be worth getting samples of coal from a number of areas, to try it's qualities.

The coast coal goes to China, and Austrailia. Ian S C

[andrew winksParticipant @andrewwinks64215]

Hi, just wondering if anyone has had experience with buying suitable coil in Queensland. What is best for 5" gauge locomotive and where to get it.

Thanks

[andrew winksParticipant @andrewwinks64215]

That's COAL not coil!

[SteamcoalnzParticipant @steamcoalnz]

Andrew.

If you want some proper Welsh stuff I have it here in New Zealand.

I offered to send some over to Australia as a trial, for free, to Melbourne but it seems no one is interested at all. Surely up there in Queensland there must be something to burn considering you are the largest carbon exporting state in the world.

I hear that in New Zealand they are waiting to try something else which sounds like a microwaved collection of leaves compressed into something to form coal. All I can say is they they must be mighty desperate if they are going to those lengths to find fuel. Just image they want to burn something that has not even been invented. Balmy in my book.

Anyway we happily tootle around the track with our Anthracite and not a care in the world.

Hayden

[andrew winksParticipant @andrewwinks64215]

Hi Hayden

Yes, we have billions of tonnes of the stuff but I don't know about buying one bag?!

I'm also very interested in the "science" behind the best to use. Ash content, calorific value, particle size, etc. Wonder if anyone has had a detailed look into this or is it just a matter of using what's available and suck it and see. My background is mineral processing and engineering and its interesting to read some of the comments about how some coals "stick in the back of the throat" after a days steaming. I assume that would be caused by high tar content. Also interested in the history of char, I don't know much about it but I assume its charcoal? No doubt, lots of discussion on this topic somewhere.

Andrew

[SteamcoalnzParticipant @steamcoalnz]

Andrew

If you have a read through this forum and the other pro.board one you will see what is written and I think Julian has provided some good information and data on the fuel. There is also another member who was a mine engineer in Wales and has plenty of knowledge of the variations which you would expect from a natural product under ground for 300million years.

From a calorific and ash point of view Welsh Coal are supreme. There are other true steam anthracite coals from other countries by I guess us in the New World look at the old countries for historical guidance and judging by what model engineers have fuelled their locos with since the late 1800's you will find no other reference apart from Anthracite. Honestly they do not even make reference to anything else as no other consideration was give apart to burn Anthracite fuels…end of story!

I will not repeat what is written but if you burn anthracite you cannot go wrong. It has twice the heat output, minimal sulphur and tar and will not damage tubes. If I did not think it was a fine fuel I would not have imported the quantity I did to New Zealand. Value for money it is cheaper and better but some modellers have found every way to discredit it you can think of. It will take time and those that have worked out how the run their engine correctly enjoy the benefits, nil emissions and less fuel used and a sweet aroma. No tarry cough after a days running!

I think they are trying the third version of Char now, Original Char which worked well but supply is difficult and production may have stopped, Coopers Char and Pacific Carbon Char are indifferent according to what I read in the Aust Model Engineer.Essentially I think that Char is a conglomeration of reconstituted coal fragments that have been heat treated and compressed with a binder to form a nugget. It has had the bad stuff removed. It does burn OK but if supply has become difficult then an alternative needs to be had. I'm just offering an alternative.

Anyway I am sure the experts in the industry will figure it out. I'll stay with the tried and true.

Hayden

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

I use anthracite beans in my boilers, I start the fire with wood soaked in parrafin or diesel and gradually add the beans with the electric blower on.

The fire is virtually smoke free and there is very little clinker but does as previously mentioned, requires a good draft.

The only time is used Steam Coal the fire was very smokey, (ideal for realism, but a pain when you're sat behind the chimney).

[SteamcoalnzParticipant @steamcoalnz]

Lofty.

I have both Anthracite ( hard black carbon) and Welsh Dry ( soft brown).

The Welsh has a slight blue tinge to the smoke and a different aroma. Both are alluring to a loco driver!

You use exactly the same method to lite up I do, except I use soaked Namibian charcoal then natural charcoal and gradually feed in the beans. I can be lit up and on the track when the rest of the house coal brigade finally clear the smoke and find the firehole door!

I almost need my own "non-smoking" steaming bay !!

Never failed yet.

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

There is a small amount of anthracite mined on the West Coast, but NZ coal is much younger than the coal in other parts of the world(35 million yrs compared with 300 million), most of the good coal is bitumus, but there is everything from peat upward.

Ian S C

[andrew winksParticipant @andrewwinks64215]

Thanks for the comments, its very interesting to get various opinions. The 2 aromas I associate with different coals are sulphur (which to me is the most pleasing) and bituminous which is the one that sticks to the throat and causes torrents to flow in the eyes.

In China for work, I get my coal "fix" from the kitchens, dryer furnaces and the street popcorn seller. The coal is no doubt from local sources and, interestingly, burns quite cleanly. The cooking briquettes are pressed from wetted coal dust, maybe some sugar water as a binder, will have to ask.

Logging into this site and viewing pics of the construction of my Qld Rail A-10 in 5" keeps check of sanity though the missed workshop time is mounting up. Intend to make amends soon.

Andrew

[John OlsenParticipant @johnolsen79199]

It's not just a matter of which coal is best, you ideally need to design the firebox to suit what is available. The Pacific locomotive was invented to allow a large firebox to suit the coal that the New Zealand Railways was using at the time. The Fell locomotives at Cross Creek used to use coal that was shipped up especially from one particular mine on the West coast. The bituminous coals have a longer flame, so require more space in the firebox for complete combustion. If the combustion is not complete then when the flame impinges on the cold tubes you will get lots of sooting. Brick arches help with this, as do combustion chambers. If you can't get really good coal it may be worth considering these even if the original design didn't have them. Brick arches for a model are usually made from stainless, you don't need to use actual bricks.

If you are producing roiling clouds of sulphurous black smoke, you have a combustion problem and should think about how to improve things. The full size firemen would get written up and fined if they did that. The other problem you might get is clinkering. This is when ash in the coal fuses into a glassy compound. It means that firebed temperatures are getting too high. The best solution is undergrate steam. This gets decomposed into hydrogen and CO2 in the firebed, and then the hydrogen burns on top of the fire, producing heat where it is really needed. The hydrogen burning also helps to keep the heating surfaces cleaner, and the lower firebed temperatures give much better life to the grate bars. You can find out more about this sort of thing from Chapelons book. Care is of course needed with undergrate steam…if you continue to inject steam or stray drips of water after the fire is gone, you will rust out your ashpan in no time.

John

[SteamcoalnzParticipant @steamcoalnz]

John.

Are you from NZ, Aust or the UK?

Nice boat and compound engine.

Maybe Kiwi engines are not ment to run on good Welsh coal. All my models are English and run fine as do my friends X-UK so maybe this is the problem.

Hayden

[John OlsenParticipant @johnolsen79199]

Hi Hayden, I am in NZ, Auckland to be precise, at least until I finish packing up and moving out.

The good coal should be OK, with maybe a little tuning to suit, eg blast pipe sizes. It is persuading not so good coal to burn well that takes a bit of work, large fireboxes and so on.

John

[SteamcoalnzParticipant @steamcoalnz]

John.

 

You will know Russell Ward?

 

Where you going…thought AKl was the best place to live in the world!

 

HB

Edited By Steamcoalnz on 23/01/2015 02:06:25

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