Recommend a Small Parts Lathe for £2k.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Personally, I would not recommend a second hand machine model to a business operator. Certainly not a machine type which could be 50 years old.

Yes, they may well be perfectly adequate, in good condition and fully serviceable. The only second hand machine I would recommend to a friend, is one that I had seen, or one from a reputable reconditioner or supplier.

We don’t even seem to be able to recommend a particular type or size in this instance. Every time I have had to apply for capital expenditure, I was expected to have a specification for the item and it had to be shown that the proposed purchase fulfilled that specification.

Less than £2000, ‘it has to be ready out of the box’ and of needing to be ‘compact’ is not a particularly complete specification but that really limits the suppliers.

My advice would be to go to Arceurotrade and others for some expert advice from regular suppliers to industry. Most on here are hobbyists or sole traders, who can operate under a different set of conditions.

Further, a lathe needs to be fixed to a rigid base, not just carted around and plonked on a bench, if consistency and accuracy is to be maintained/ assured. A robust trolley/bench with wheels could be adequate, but a permanent home is clearly the preferred option. At least for a business operator.

Maybe a good 3-D printer would better suit the needs, rather than a lathe? Make the part, circulate to suppliers for something in the material required and modify if needed. Most screws, nuts and bolts have already been invented by someone, somewhere. Another possibility is advertising for a local retired hobbyist who would like some pin money.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by John Mitchell 9 on 01/12/2019 12:04:47

…

I honestly wish that after so many decades someone just came up with a perfect, super sturdy design, made locally in a compact package with long lasting internals that you don't need to fiddle with… Could it be any simpler? Ha!

Thanks again,

J

Ha! indeed. Do you really think such a design is possible for anything with such a variety of possible applications and value factors?

[John Mitchell 9Participant @johnmitchell9]

Posted by not done it yet on 01/12/2019 12:30:43:

Personally, I would not recommend a second hand machine model to a business operator. Certainly not a machine type which could be 50 years old.

Yes, they may well be perfectly adequate, in good condition and fully serviceable. The only second hand machine I would recommend to a friend, is one that I had seen, or one from a reputable reconditioner or supplier.

We don’t even seem to be able to recommend a particular type or size in this instance. Every time I have had to apply for capital expenditure, I was expected to have a specification for the item and it had to be shown that the proposed purchase fulfilled that specification.

Less than £2000, ‘it has to be ready out of the box’ and of needing to be ‘compact’ is not a particularly complete specification but that really limits the suppliers.

My advice would be to go to Arceurotrade and others for some expert advice from regular suppliers to industry. Most on here are hobbyists or sole traders, who can operate under a different set of conditions.

Further, a lathe needs to be fixed to a rigid base, not just carted around and plonked on a bench, if consistency and accuracy is to be maintained/ assured. A robust trolley/bench with wheels could be adequate, but a permanent home is clearly the preferred option. At least for a business operator.

Maybe a good 3-D printer would better suit the needs, rather than a lathe? Make the part, circulate to suppliers for something in the material required and modify if needed. Most screws, nuts and bolts have already been invented by someone, somewhere. Another possibility is advertising for a local retired hobbyist who would like some pin money.

Many thanks for your input. We're only a small outfit of a few welders and fabricators. Not at all a big business of any kind. In many ways the management is closer to hands on, "fix it with what you've got" mindset than a "business operator". For years we've contracted out the work to a local engineering firm that has grown big time and now works on big contracts. Our relationships go way back so have not changed but for them it's becoming difficult to serve our "small" needs.

There is a local grandpa with a lathe that we can use but we often need things done on a short turn around time and it's difficult to get him to stick to that. So by god we're getting a lathe! Again, if it's small enough it may reside on a bench. We've just not got the room for a standalone lathe, that's why I keep obsessing about the compact design. Not the watchmaker type granted but 500mm between the centres is more than we need for this lathe to handle.

[John Mitchell 9Participant @johnmitchell9]

Posted by Mick B1 on 01/12/2019 12:45:24:

Posted by John Mitchell 9 on 01/12/2019 12:04:47

…

I honestly wish that after so many decades someone just came up with a perfect, super sturdy design, made locally in a compact package with long lasting internals that you don't need to fiddle with… Could it be any simpler? Ha!

Thanks again,

J

Ha! indeed. Do you really think such a design is possible for anything with such a variety of possible applications and value factors?

Mick Hi,

No, of course not. Wishful thinking on my part. It would be nice though!

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by John Mitchell 9 on 01/12/2019 12:47:59:

Posted by Mick B1 on 01/12/2019 12:45:24:

Posted by John Mitchell 9 on 01/12/2019 12:04:47

…

I honestly wish that after so many decades someone just came up with a perfect, super sturdy design, made locally in a compact package with long lasting internals that you don't need to fiddle with… Could it be any simpler? Ha!

Thanks again,

J

Ha! indeed. Do you really think such a design is possible for anything with such a variety of possible applications and value factors?

Mick Hi,

No, of course not. Wishful thinking on my part. It would be nice though!

Yes 'twould, but I think such a thing would only be possible if price could somehow be excluded as a determinant …

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Hollowpoint on 30/11/2019 23:18:38:

The ML7 and super 7 are massively overrated and overpriced. Your photo proves that even rough ones can fetch a good price.

The ML10 on the other hand is much less popular and represents good value for money, they can be had for less than £500 which is about the price of a mini lathe. I don't know what you went to look at but I don't know how you can be unimpressed? Almost every ml10 I've ever seen has been in at least good condition. They where typically used by model engineers rather than industry so most have seen little use. In comparison to a mini lathe its like a Rolls Royce. No plastic covers, no plastic gears, no plastic handwheels a properly ground bed, proper motor and proper chuck. What's not to like? IMO they are actually a bit of a bargain.

I do agree that Boxford lathes beat them all hands down, it just doesn't fit with OP's requirements.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder! When I looked at an ML10 I was after a lathe functionally better than my mini-lathe, and the ML10 isn't. It's a rather ordinary small lathe, competently finished.

Believe it or not, mini-lathes do have properly ground beds and proper motors and the chuck that came with mine was good too. Plastic gears don't worry me at all – they're quieter than metal ones! Nor do plastic covers and hand-wheels concern me; they work just as well as metal. Although the ML10 won the beauty contest, I wasn't moved to buy one.

Despite the machine being in excellent condition, the killer was the asking price, £750 with no tooling. Unfortunately it's been widely broadcast that ML10s are bargains compared with other Myfords. Certainly true when it was first said, but today ML10's in good nick cost more than I want to pay for a basic small machine. Prices have crept up.

While it's true second-hand bargains pop up, they cannot be relied on. ebay prices are better indicators than those paid by lucky buyers and anyone willing to rip-off a recent widow. (Obviously no-one on this forum!)

Have to confess my attitude to working tools is utilitarian and it's not necessary to agree with me! Provided a tool does what I want of it and is affordable I don't care about its heritage or 'quality'. I run a knock-about workshop not a heritage centre. One advantage of going Far Eastern is I'm not worried about what happens to my tools when I die. Anyone else in your family appreciate good tools for what they are? I'd fret if my workshop contained carefully selected tools of historic interest: too often such things end up as razor blades…

I drive a Vauxhall Corsa; wouldn't touch a Rolls-Royce with a barge-pole. Excellent car, totally unsuited to my needs, which include narrow roads and difficult parking.

Dave

[Douglas JohnstonParticipant @douglasjohnston98463]

The Myford ML10 or preferably Speed 10 is by no means perfect, but I have been using one for the past 30 years or so and rate it highly for what it is. It is compact, has a quality feel to all the controls and would be worth considering for the type of work required by the initial poster. I have nothing against the small Chinese lathes, and I have looked at a few in my time, but they don't have the same quality built into them.

Doug

[HollowpointParticipant @hollowpoint]

Duplicate post

Edited By Hollowpoint on 01/12/2019 16:06:16

[Anonymous]

Posted by not done it yet on 01/12/2019 12:30:43:

We don’t even seem to be able to recommend a particular type or size in this instance.

That's because nothing exists that meets all the requirements. A new industrial lathe will meet the turning requirements, but will bust the budget and will not be portable. A far eastern lathe will meet budget and portability, but may not meet requirements to work out of the box and make turning a pleasure. Some issues may be:

Ease of chainging spindle speed and feedrates. Of course many new machines have variable speed drives, but the price to be paid is lack of torque at low speed. Will they take decent cuts on stainless steel at slow speeds? I don't know, but wouldn't want to find out after purchase.

Ease of changing chucks. To me fiddling with bolts each time would be unacceptable.

Simple locking of saddle, cross and top slides, with locks that work.

How is the tailstock clamped, nut or proper lever locking.

We have no indication of accuracy requirements, but I suspect that moving a lathe around would not be conducive to accurate work, say a thou or so, or 0.02mm.

The basic problem is that nothing exists that meets all the requirements of the OP. So the requirements need to change.

Andrew

[HollowpointParticipant @hollowpoint]

Posted by Mick B1 on 01/12/2019 10:34:33:

For all the stuff I do, I think the Warco WM250V I have now way outclasses the Myford Speed 10 (late type of ML10) in every respect I can think of.

It should be its 2-4 times more expensive.

I've had both the ML10 and a Mini Lathe so I am speaking from experience. I completely fail to see how anyone could believe they are even in the same league! Take my mini lathe for example, the bed, from new, is tighter at one end than the other! Properly ground? Not even close. It would take about a hundred years of use to wear the myford bed into that state! The only real advantage the mini lathe has is the larger internal spindle diameter but in this case its not needed

[John Mitchell 9Participant @johnmitchell9]

Thanks everyone for your replies. It does appear that the lathe "mobility" threw us off course. But I've got some better news – just heard from the bossman and someone close pointed him in the direction of Chester lathes, namely Crusader Deluxe?

They've got one and it's been good to them so looks we'll be buying one too. It's a monster and we've got a little storage room (2x2m) and this "thing" will move in there. God know where we'll store our supplies but oh well. A U-turn on the size and double the budget but a weight off my shoulders.

I suppose it's a bit rich of me asking for your opinion on a Crusader? Given the price point and "deluxe" title I take it it can do everything 'well'?

Thanks again.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

I'm sure most or us would be happy to have such a lathe forced on us. Despite the variable opinions of the finish on mini lathes I expect one this size will have been finished to a better quality as they would consider it a flagship product at the bottom end of the industrial range.
It scores well on all the factors above the bed – check change, speed range, power, capacity, supplied tooling (get their optional tooling pack too). It's only deficiency is the threading gearbox has the usual limitations of trying to do both metric and imperial on the cheap.

[jimmy bParticipant @jimmyb]

I have both the SC4 and Crusader lathes.

Very happy with both.

Good luck.

Jim

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Hollowpoint on 01/12/2019 16:05:30:

Posted by Mick B1 on 01/12/2019 10:34:33:

For all the stuff I do, I think the Warco WM250V I have now way outclasses the Myford Speed 10 (late type of ML10) in every respect I can think of.

It should be its 2-4 times more expensive.

I've had both the ML10 and a Mini Lathe so I am speaking from experience.

…

I paid about 1.4 times the price of a top-class Speed 10, and think I got about 3 times the machine. I'd had my Speed 10 for 15 years and had done my best with it, but the stuff I've done since replacing it is much better and more varied in scope, and has been easier to achieve.

Anyway, the OP's situation has now been settled on what looks like a very capable alternative.

[John Mitchell 9Participant @johnmitchell9]

Posted by Bazyle on 01/12/2019 18:44:10:

I'm sure most or us would be happy to have such a lathe forced on us. Despite the variable opinions of the finish on mini lathes I expect one this size will have been finished to a better quality as they would consider it a flagship product at the bottom end of the industrial range.
It scores well on all the factors above the bed – check change, speed range, power, capacity, supplied tooling (get their optional tooling pack too). It's only deficiency is the threading gearbox has the usual limitations of trying to do both metric and imperial on the cheap.

Thanks Bazyle. Unfortunately such a powerful lathe will be lost on us. Force a latest, new big welder on us and most in the shop will be happy but a lathe? Meh. We're not macinists so even though we'll be happy to learn a new piece of equipment/technique our experience with it will be limited to just small round parts we are to weld to some oblong boxes later on. The irony eh!

[John Mitchell 9Participant @johnmitchell9]

Posted by jimmy b on 01/12/2019 19:06:39:

I have both the SC4 and Crusader lathes.

Very happy with both.

Good luck.

Jim

Ironically, I've narrowed it down to SC4 previously but the price difference doesn't appear to be much between the two lathes? I mean nearly £2k from Axminster for the SC4 with stand and £3k for the Crusader (not deluxe). From a layman perspective does one get a lot more for an extra grand between the two machines? Thanks again for your input.

[jimmy bParticipant @jimmyb]

The SC4 has been a more reliable machine and has done a lot of work for me.

The Crusader (mine is the deluxe) is a more capable machine. The DRO fitted to this is very useful.

I have found that the two lathes actually compliment each other very well.

As for reliability, the SC4 has done thousands pf hours of work and not really gone wrong, on the other hand, the Crusader has given me enough trouble with the motor, to push me in to spend on a VFD and new motor.

If I was to but one from business use, I'd seriously consider the Chester Variable speed 415v version.

Jim

[Anonymous]

Posted by John Mitchell 9 on 01/12/2019 17:31:02:

I suppose it's a bit rich of me asking for your opinion on a Crusader? Given the price point and "deluxe" title I take it it can do everything 'well'?

Never assume anything, ask the supplier for confirmation.

The Crusader looks a competent machine. A mate of mine (who was a professional machinist) has the Warco equivalent, and he's pretty happy with it, although not as nice as the Harrison M300 he really wanted. He mentioned two issues. One, the Camlock system isn't always quite as slick as it ought to be. Two, if you remove the gap piece it is not guaranteed to go back in exactly the same place.

I have a M300 so it'll be interesting to compare the specifications, Crusader to M300, where they differ:

Centre height, swing over bed, swing in gap and between centres values are about 10% smaller

Length in gap is significantly larger than the M300

Slide travels are slightly less as you'd expect

Tailstock barrel diameter and travel are about 20% less

The Crusader has more spindle speeds but over a smaller range. I can't see the top end being a problem. I never run my M300 at top speed (2500rpm) due to the noise, but 67rpm at the bottom end may be a problem when screwcutting, depending upon the reaction time of the operator

Feed rates are a slightly narrower range, but not significant. On the M300 cross feeds are half the longitudinal feed, on the Crusader it's more like a quarter

Metric threads are over a smaller range, fine and coarse pitch threads missing

Imperial threads are missing some coarse tpi, which I suspect won't bother the OP

Module threads are very similar and DP threads over a wider range, although again I don't suppose these are relevant to the OP

It would be well worth asking for a detailed list of the threads that can be cut – as always the devil is in the detail

Leadscrew pitch is half that of the metric M300

The motor power is half that of the M300. Should be adequate for making small bushes, but not for hogging. I've stalled my M300 when roughing, so beware. It's not clear from the spec whether the Crusader has a 415V 3-phase motor, or whether the OP has 3-phase available.

The Crusader weighs not much more than half the M300

I think the Crusader should be more than capable of the jobs the OP has, but I'd check everything with the supplier rather than get surprises after purchase. Ask about saddle and slide locks – the M300 has them, and they work, does the Crusader? I believe the new price for a M300 is around £20k, so the Crusader s a lot of lathe for the money.

Andrew

[Derek GreenhalghParticipant @derekgreenhalgh23299]

I bought an HBM machine which is basically a different colour Warco, the 250G, 12 speed rather than variable and has a norton gearbox, all cast gears and to change from metric to imperial only 1 gear needs to be changed. I went with the fixed speeds rather than variable because of the problems arising from the variable speed models. Its a 250x550mm lathe and the good thing often overlooked is autofeed on the cross slide as well as longitudanal, gives a much better finish on faceing cuts.

Once you have a lathe you will wonder how you managed without one as they are usefull for more than just turning and threading metal.

A new lathe will come with all the CE (chineese export &#128514requirements needes for a buisnell an older second hand one might not comply.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

From the little that i have seen of a friends Arc Euro Seig SC4, I was impressed.

Speed control is electronic, and feeds or thread pitches are by changewheels.

I can understand why Arc Euro do not warranty machines for industrial use. In industry, it could be hard at work for 40+ hours per week; compared to infrequent use for a hobby.

There never will be a lathe that satisfies everyone's requirements, because we all have different needs.

My lathe is a lookalike of a Warco BH600, but no longer on sale. Has a Norton gearbox and only one Idler needs to be moved to change from cutting Imperial threads to Metric.threads. At 300 Kg not a lathe to lift off a stand and put under the bench. So too big for your purposes.

Later models may offer similar facilities, but at a reduced size / weight. Certainly the sort of spec to look for.

Whatever you buy, do mount it on a substantial stand or baseboard. The bed needs to be free from twist, or work free from unwanted tapers is unlikely to be produced, consistently..

There is a lot to be said for a simple machine that is rugged, rather than over sophisticated. Why spend money on a bell or whistle that will never be needed?

Howard

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