Powder coating

[Joseph Noci 1Participant @josephnoci1]

Posted by thaiguzzi on 04/03/2020 06:24:33:

Posted by vintage engineer on 03/03/2020 09:27:35:

Powder coating is a plastic coating despite what everyone tell you. It is a cheap and quick process that gives an excellent finish for manufacturers and does not last and will fail as soon as you break the surface!

Utter tosh.

And it is NOT PLASTIC coating.

Go and see how it is applicated in a finishing shop or factory, or even, heaven, forbid, watch a YT video.

Jeez.

Now THAT is close to utter Tosh! Really no need for such a frothy , esp if your facts are awry…

Of course it is a 'plastic' . That may be a loosely used generic term, but it fits.

a sound description:

There are two main categories of powder coating: thermosets and thermoplastics. The thermosetting variety incorporates a cross-linker into the formulation. When the powder is baked, it reacts with other chemical groups in the powder to polymerize, improving the performance properties. The thermoplastic variety does not undergo any additional actions during the baking process as it flows to form the final coating.

The most common polymers used are  polyesters, polyurethanes, polyester-epoxies (known as hybrids).The latter is not common for general use, eg, garden furniture, household white goods, street signs, etc, but most often used in Marine and hi-demand/cost applications.

 

And as Model Engineers all know, polyesters, polyurethanes, etc fall under the category of engineering PLASTICS..

 

(jeez..)

 

Edited By Joseph Noci 1 on 04/03/2020 06:53:04

[PeroParticipant @pero]

Definitely plastic.

But as Joseph Noci points out there are plastics and there are plastics.

I have seen the outdoor furniture were the coating falls off in a year or two of outdoor use but I also have aluminium framed windows on my workshop ( exposed to sun and rain ) where the powder coating is as good as new after some thirty odd years ( well a bit grubby but it is the end of summer after all ).

As with all other surface finishes I assume it comes down to preparation, the quality of the coating material and the application and finishing procedures.

A slightly related grumble ( and apologies – I do not mean to hijack the thread) is the Chinese paint which quickly turns to a dull finish and then comes of as a powder on anything that touches it – namely me. If anyone has a suitable method for stabilising it ( in preference to reducing affected parts to bare metal ) and recommendations for a suitable finishing coating I would be very interested to hear.

Cheers

Pero

[Perko7Participant @perko7]

Properly applied powder coating is very durable and does not usually flake off unless the substrate has not been properly prepared. There are umpteen thousands of powder-coated whitegoods in houses all over the world which in general seem to last quite well, although not exposed to the elements. There are also many thousands of powder-coated bicycle frames in use all over the world that are often exposed to harsh conditions and seem to last pretty well. I have at times refurbished bicycles and I can confirm that removing properly applied powder coating is a lot harder than removing paint.

[Clive IndiaParticipant @cliveindia]

Posted by Perko7 on 04/03/2020 11:28:54:

….. I have at times refurbished bicycles and I can confirm that removing properly applied powder coating is a lot harder than removing paint.

Very much agree – and that's a reasonable test.

[thaiguzziParticipant @thaiguzzi]

Posted by Joseph Noci 1 on 04/03/2020 06:43:41:

Posted by thaiguzzi on 04/03/2020 06:24:33:

Posted by vintage engineer on 03/03/2020 09:27:35:

Powder coating is a plastic coating despite what everyone tell you. It is a cheap and quick process that gives an excellent finish for manufacturers and does not last and will fail as soon as you break the surface!

Utter tosh.

And it is NOT PLASTIC coating.

Go and see how it is applicated in a finishing shop or factory, or even, heaven, forbid, watch a YT video.

Jeez.

Now THAT is close to utter Tosh! Really no need for such a frothy , esp if your facts are awry…

Of course it is a 'plastic' . That may be a loosely used generic term, but it fits.

a sound description:

There are two main categories of powder coating: thermosets and thermoplastics. The thermosetting variety incorporates a cross-linker into the formulation. When the powder is baked, it reacts with other chemical groups in the powder to polymerize, improving the performance properties. The thermoplastic variety does not undergo any additional actions during the baking process as it flows to form the final coating.

The most common polymers used are polyesters, polyurethanes, polyester-epoxies (known as hybrids).The latter is not common for general use, eg, garden furniture, household white goods, street signs, etc, but most often used in Marine and hi-demand/cost applications.

And as Model Engineers all know, polyesters, polyurethanes, etc fall under the category of engineering PLASTICS..

(jeez..)

Edited By Joseph Noci 1 on 04/03/2020 06:53:04

Whatever.

Was the other part he quoted utter tosh or not?

I would call powder coating powder, not plastic myself, but hey each to his own.

I aint that pedantic. Nor frothy.

[vintage engineerParticipant @vintageengineer]

At the end of the day YOU may call it what you like but it is plastic and it's cheap nasty crap product.

Try looking at the bottom of road sign posts and you will see how bad it is. The only finish that lasts on exterior steel work is galvanising!

Posted by thaiguzzi on 05/03/2020 14:41:16:

Posted by Joseph Noci 1 on 04/03/2020 06:43:41:

Posted by thaiguzzi on 04/03/2020 06:24:33:

Posted by vintage engineer on 03/03/2020 09:27:35:

Powder coating is a plastic coating despite what everyone tell you. It is a cheap and quick process that gives an excellent finish for manufacturers and does not last and will fail as soon as you break the surface!

Utter tosh.

And it is NOT PLASTIC coating.

Go and see how it is applicated in a finishing shop or factory, or even, heaven, forbid, watch a YT video.

Jeez.

Now THAT is close to utter Tosh! Really no need for such a frothy , esp if your facts are awry…

Of course it is a 'plastic' . That may be a loosely used generic term, but it fits.

a sound description:

There are two main categories of powder coating: thermosets and thermoplastics. The thermosetting variety incorporates a cross-linker into the formulation. When the powder is baked, it reacts with other chemical groups in the powder to polymerize, improving the performance properties. The thermoplastic variety does not undergo any additional actions during the baking process as it flows to form the final coating.

The most common polymers used are polyesters, polyurethanes, polyester-epoxies (known as hybrids).The latter is not common for general use, eg, garden furniture, household white goods, street signs, etc, but most often used in Marine and hi-demand/cost applications.

And as Model Engineers all know, polyesters, polyurethanes, etc fall under the category of engineering PLASTICS..

(jeez..)

Edited By Joseph Noci 1 on 04/03/2020 06:53:04

Whatever.

Was the other part he quoted utter tosh or not?

I would call powder coating powder, not plastic myself, but hey each to his own.

I aint that pedantic. Nor frothy.

[MikelkieParticipant @mikelkie]

Posted by thaiguzzi on 04/03/2020 06:24:33:

Posted by vintage engineer on 03/03/2020 09:27:35:

Powder coating is a plastic coating despite what everyone tell you. It is a cheap and quick process that gives an excellent finish for manufacturers and does not last and will fail as soon as you break the surface!

Utter tosh.

And it is NOT PLASTIC coating.

Go and see how it is applicated in a finishing shop or factory, or even, heaven, forbid, watch a YT video.

Jeez.

Hear-Hear my experience too

[Kiwi BlokeParticipant @kiwibloke62605]

There may be some confusion here between powder-coating and the awful coatings which used to be seen (perhaps are still seen) on cheap steel outdoor furniture. This was a nylon coating, heat-fused (but I don't know whether powder-coated or dipped), which came off in sheets as the rust spread rampantly underneath it. Much coloured sheet-metal fabrications (machine cabinets, storage cabinets, electrical cabinets) are powder-coated. The trick is the surface prep. and the choice of medium, as others have said.

Powder coating is a great way to achieve coverage on complex items such as (car) space frames. However, the coatings can be flexible enough so that early cracking of the frame is not apparent. Relatively brittle paints, such as cellulose, have been advocated for painting structures where it's important to be able to detect incipient failure as early as possible.

[thaiguzziParticipant @thaiguzzi]

Posted by vintage engineer on 07/03/2020 19:35:35:

At the end of the day YOU may call it what you like but it is plastic and it's cheap nasty crap product.

Try looking at the bottom of road sign posts and you will see how bad it is. The only finish that lasts on exterior steel work is galvanising!

Posted by thaiguzzi on 05/03/2020 14:41:16:

Posted by Joseph Noci 1 on 04/03/2020 06:43:41:

Posted by thaiguzzi on 04/03/2020 06:24:33:

Posted by vintage engineer on 03/03/2020 09:27:35:

Powder coating is a plastic coating despite what everyone tell you. It is a cheap and quick process that gives an excellent finish for manufacturers and does not last and will fail as soon as you break the surface!

Utter tosh.

And it is NOT PLASTIC coating.

Go and see how it is applicated in a finishing shop or factory, or even, heaven, forbid, watch a YT video.

Jeez.

Now THAT is close to utter Tosh! Really no need for such a frothy , esp if your facts are awry…

Of course it is a 'plastic' . That may be a loosely used generic term, but it fits.

a sound description:

There are two main categories of powder coating: thermosets and thermoplastics. The thermosetting variety incorporates a cross-linker into the formulation. When the powder is baked, it reacts with other chemical groups in the powder to polymerize, improving the performance properties. The thermoplastic variety does not undergo any additional actions during the baking process as it flows to form the final coating.

The most common polymers used are polyesters, polyurethanes, polyester-epoxies (known as hybrids).The latter is not common for general use, eg, garden furniture, household white goods, street signs, etc, but most often used in Marine and hi-demand/cost applications.

And as Model Engineers all know, polyesters, polyurethanes, etc fall under the category of engineering PLASTICS..

(jeez..)

Edited By Joseph Noci 1 on 04/03/2020 06:53:04

Whatever.

Was the other part he quoted utter tosh or not?

I would call powder coating powder, not plastic myself, but hey each to his own.

I aint that pedantic. Nor frothy.

Mmm, don't tell me, tell every major motorcycle manufacturer in the world who uses it on steel frames and swing arms and steel and alloy wheels.

They must all be wrong too, and have huge warranty problems replacing all that powder paintwork constantly.

Geez.

[Involute CurveParticipant @involutecurve]

At work we have a coating division, We often use powder coat as a primer especially if the final coat is a candy or other exotic finish, in addition powder coats are often applied in two or three stages, primer and finish and them possibly a lacquer coat, I have on many occasions powder coated steel structures (Motorcycle Restoration) that have had corrosion damage, after stripping and blasting we pre heat the frame then apply polyester powder primer, this can then be sanded back to get a smooth surface effectively filling in the corrosion damage, it is then re heated and over coated until I am happy with it, this can easily be flatted off and then painted over with paint, I suppose you could describe polyester as plastic, but if your inclined to be pedantic you could describe most paints (polyurethanes, etc etc) and in fact most clothing as plastic.

As an aside some so called powder coats are no longer in powder form they are liquid and applied with a spray gun and then baked at up to 400 deg C on our race engines we use Xylan coating this stuff is amazing applied wet as a super thin coat, the only we we have found to remove it effectively is with glass bead and its a nightmare taking ages, this is a fluorocarbon base product, Another plastic.. ha-ha

Shaun

Xylan coating both Silver and Grey

I've uploaded some more pics of this engine competing in last Years Classic TT to my Misc album just in case anyone is interested.

Edited By Involute Curve on 08/03/2020 10:36:50

[John RutzenParticipant @johnrutzen76569]

That;s very interesting because i want a coating for steel and brass which can be overpainted and doesn't flake off. This was why I am interested in powder coating. Is the primer applied using a powder coating gun? Specifically what primer is it please? I've found by experiment that ordinary Screwfix galvanising primer can be stoved at about 150 C and it makes it adhere a lot better.

[Richard S2Participant @richards2]

Just to endorse Involute Curve's post. I admit to having panels media blasted and powder coated black as a base for prepping for paint on projects 8-10 years ago (Garden Tractors etc shown in my album).

It offered me the option to take as long as I liked to prep the base finish without risk of any corrosion. As long as I did not expose bare metal I was able to achieve the finish I wanted (with aerosols). The durable glass like finish is still as new.

The guy who powdered the panels knew I wanted to paint and may have used a powder that would accept it. I only had to rough the surface with a green scourer sheet for a degreased key for the first coat of primer on it.

.

[Joseph Noci 1Participant @josephnoci1]

Posted by John Rutzen on 02/03/2020 15:11:53:

I was really inspired by that video someone posted the other day about paint preparetion because I've never had good results with paint adhering on my model locos.. Powder coating seems the way to go but the only spray guns i can find on Amazon are the chinese ones .. Has anyone any experience of these? There are no reviews on them to speak of.There is a UK supplier of the american eastwood ones but quite pricey. The chinese ones on amazon are on quick delivery and apparently come from swithzerland so shouldn't be shipping extra charges or a long delivery time,

And yet, with all our ranting and raving about plastic or not, good process or not…

Not one of us answered or gave comment or advice on the actual question that was the reason for John's post

Sorry John..

Joe

Edited By Joseph Noci 1 on 08/03/2020 14:27:53

[RustkolectorParticipant @rustkolector]

In the US many of us use a product called Gun Kote from K.G. Coatings Co. It is a baking cross linked polymer that goes on very thin which makes painting of parts prior to assembly trouble free with few clearance issues. Optimal thickness is .0003-.0004". Powder coat thickness was always too thick causing assembly problems. GK was developed for many types of US Mil Spec severe application firearms. It requires a 120 grit Aluminum oxide grit blast, solvent cleaning, apply, then bake 1 hr at 162 C. It isn't fussy about the base metal it attaches to. It doesn't chip even under bolt heads. It will not come of unless grit blasted. I have not found a solvent the has any affect on it and I often clean of my engines with automotive spray brake cleaner. The flat and satin colors look especially real on models.

http://shop.kgcoatings.com/kg/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/2400262500SeriesDataSheet2017.pdf

I have mentioned this product before on this forum, but this product hasn't been available in the UK in the past. I am told it will be available in the UK soon. I will try to let this forum know when it will be.

Jeff

Edited By Rustkolector on 08/03/2020 17:35:04

[Ian Johnson 1Participant @ianjohnson1]

Hi John have a look at electrostatic magic made in the UK. I have got the start up set and it works very well, although I have only used it on motorbike foot pegs and small things, the results are great!

Bought it a few years ago at Stafford classic bike show for around £150 ish

Regards

Ian

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

Gun Kote is available in aerosol form in UK from Amazon

Dave W

[John RutzenParticipant @johnrutzen76569]

hi Ian, thanks for the picture of your powder coat gun. How does that work? There doesn't appear to be any electrostatic generator.

[Ian Johnson 1Participant @ianjohnson1]

It doesn't need an electrostatic generator. It simply has an earth lead from the gun which clips to the part you are coating. Really easy and simple low cost method which works very well.

Ian

[RustkolectorParticipant @rustkolector]

As I said in my previous post in this thread, Gun Kote is setting up to sell and distribute in the UK. They are now trading as Gunkote UK. They can now be reached by email at info@gunkote.co.uk but their website is not yet on line. I think they have some colors in stock. If you are interested in their coatings I suggest you visit the US website **LINK** for detailed information and tech data sheets. I may sound like I have a vested interest in this company, but I do not. A gunsmith friend of mine introduced me to this product when I reiterated my model painting woes. I am an IC model engine builder that has tried almost every paint and coating available in the US available to the average person without much satisfaction. If it didn’t chip, it eventually peeled from brass and aluminum. Or, it became discolored by accidental contact with harsh solvents. Re-coat times provided unpleasant surprises when I lost track of time. Re-coating a finish or changing color was a real ordeal. It was always one problem after another. I would encourage any serious model builder (especially traction and locomotive) to review the GK tech data sheets and information and draw your own conclusions. A poster above indicated GK is available in aerosol cans, but I don't think so. GK is very fluid (like acetone) and requires light coat build up for best results. It requires very fine atomization and flow control which aerosol cannot normally provide.

Jeff

[Frances IoMParticipant @francesiom58905]

Isn’t there an article maybe in MEW or referenced from an earlier forum message re a DIY version of the gun as the ‘paint’ is charged by passage down a sinuous track in the PTFE tube and is then attracted to the ‘grounded’ item

[John RutzenParticipant @johnrutzen76569]

That's interesting, does anyone know the reference? I also looked up Gunkote on Amazon and there was only heat resistant aerosols, not the real stuff.

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