Optimum products?

[Alan AmbroseParticipant @alanambrose45980]

Hi,

Anyone have any experience of the Optimum products?

**LINK**

These are appealing to me as: (a) Stefan Gotteswinter has one of their mills and I defer to him as a machinist and (b) they give guaranteed run-out specs and (c) their narrative says they run their own Chinese factory and do their own QC.

I saw some old threads here that suggested that Chester sold Optimum-sourced products, but I can't find any recent evidence to suggest that's true.

TIA, Alan

[Alan AmbroseParticipant @alanambrose45980]

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

Couple of years ago there was a guy in Australia , John as I recall, who bought an Optimum lathe. He struggled with many defects in it, including carriage jamming due to the leadscrew bushing hole at tailstock end being bored several mm out of position in the casting. A fellow Aussie forum member Hopper visited him and helped him get the lathe working far better. I don't recall whether it met expectations after all the fettling but I do recall it was a struggle. Unless Optimum have improved, I would choose another brand, based on John's experience as a beginner. Mr Gotteswinter can probably rectify anything arising on his mill, being a professional toolmaker. You may be able to as well, of course.

Mr Gotteswinter also bought his mill in Germany. It could be that Optimum take extra care or do extra QC and prep in their Chinese factory on their machines intended for the German (home country of brand) market.

[Dick HParticipant @dickh]

I´ve got one of their bandsaws, it works and you can get spares here. Else it looks like many other offerings. The first think it did was to eat the rubber tyres that drove the blade. Dick.

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by Ian B. on 18/10/2020 19:15:14:

However the factory you refer to is WEISS in an unpronouncable place in China.

Ian

I believe Weiss are based in Nanjing, formerly known in the English-speaking world as Nanking.

Surely not that unpronounceable either way.

[Lee RogersParticipant @leerogers95060]

I have a large bench pillar drill from Optimum. Can't fault it and I did look at a lot of the other offerings available elsewhere before choosing it. Too many that I looked at had a quill that waved about like twig in the wind , the Optimum is solid.

[gerry maddenParticipant @gerrymadden53711]

Lee, 'like a twig in the wind' … It would be good if we could quantify such important things in a better way. Is there any chance you could slip a spring balance onto the the end of the spindle of your optimum and measure its load-deflection relative to the table in the X and Y directions ?

[John MCParticipant @johnmc39344]

I have an Optimum drill grinder purchased new in preference to the near identical Warco product, purely on the grounds of cost.

Its been reliable and, importantly, accurate. I've since been able to closely compare with a Warco grinder, appears to be identical apart from colour and some differences in the switch gear.

On the basis of this I think I would give "Optimum" machinery serious consideration if I an ever in the market for workshop equipment.

John

[dcostaParticipant @dcosta]

Hello,

This is a photo taken from an Optimum catalog that shows that, at least in 2015/2016 their factory was in Yangzhou.
If anyone is interested in the catalog (220 pages, 21MB), I can make it available for download.

I have had a BF20 milling machine from Optimum since 2008 and I am satisfied with it.

Dias Costa

Edited By dcosta on 19/10/2020 10:14:10

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by gerry madden on 18/10/2020 23:42:01:

Lee, 'like a twig in the wind' … It would be good if we could quantify such important things in a better way. Is there any chance you could slip a spring balance onto the the end of the spindle of your optimum and measure its load-deflection relative to the table in the X and Y directions ?

.

Presumably negligible … given what Lee wrote

[quote]
Too many that I looked at had a quill that waved about like twig in the wind , the Optimum is solid.
[/quote]

MichaelG.
.

 

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 19/10/2020 10:25:29

[Alan AmbroseParticipant @alanambrose45980]

>>> This is a photo taken from an Optimum catalog that shows that, at least in 2015/2016 their factory was in Yangzhou.

From my link above, the marketing puff on their website states:

"Production in Yangzhou / China

Since 2003, OPTIMUM Maschinen Germany GmbH has produced a large share of its metalworking machines in its own factory in Yangzhou China. The quality here is monitored by German quality management officers and production supervisors. The most important part of development, design and quality management takes place in Germany."

Which is an appealing narrative at least…

[Alan AmbroseParticipant @alanambrose45980]

For those people who have purchased Optimum products – did you source from a UK supplier or direct from Germany?

Alan

[John MCParticipant @johnmc39344]

Posted by Alan Ambrose on 19/10/2020 12:21:24:

For those people who have purchased Optimum products – did you source from a UK supplier or direct from Germany?

Alan

From Germany. I think there is (was?) a UK agent.

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

I think there is (was?) a UK agent.

Excel Machine Tools show Optimum machines in their catalogue.

Nigel B.

[Cabinet EnforcerParticipant @cabinetenforcer]

Posted by Alan Ambrose on 19/10/2020 12:20:14:

Which is an appealing narrative at least…

It's one version of the truth, another is that the machines are pretty much identical to the ones sold by many others and that you would be better served looking mainly at the reputation of the supplier rather than their machines. As above the UK agent is excel who are more into the small scale industrial stuff rather than hobby, so you won't find much experience here, also the optimum mills are priced quite high considering the similarity to other machines.

It used to be the case that (some) optimum mills were machined such that CNC conversion was easier, which would be one reason to look at them particularly, but it has been quite a while since I saw that claim and it would need to be verified it was still the case.

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

There's a slightly fuller introduction to Optimum/Toptech here:

http://www.toptechmachine.net/gs.asp?bigclassname=%B9%D8%D3%DA%CE%D2%C3%C7

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Alan Ambrose on 19/10/2020 12:20:14:…

"Production in Yangzhou / China

Since 2003, OPTIMUM Maschinen Germany GmbH has produced a large share of its metalworking machines in its own factory in Yangzhou China. The quality here is monitored by German quality management officers and production supervisors. The most important part of development, design and quality management takes place in Germany."

Which is an appealing narrative at least…

I don't think there's enough experience of Optimum products on the forum to give a view; more people need to buy them. The claimed advantages of German involvement could be real, or not.

I feel customer expectations are adrift when it comes to hobby machines. What we want is:

1. Warranted accuracy
2. Guaranteed no faults on delivery
3. Rock bottom prices.

Unfortunately there's a head-on collision between rock bottom prices and technical perfection. If the customer really needs warranted accuracy and guaranteed out-of-the box operation, there's an easy answer. Cough up for a professional machine! Almost unknown for anyone in the hobby community to buy new professional kit because it's expensive. Instead we go for one of the hobby machines or look for a second-hand machine in good condition.

Hobby machines, I think, are made to a particular quality strategy. Rather than push costs up by filling the factory with inspectors and fitters, a certain error rate is accepted. Most machines are OK, some perfect, and a few are poor. It's cheaper to accept a certain number of machines will be customer rejects and simply replace them, than to apply a high-end quality process. This method isn't applied to professional equipment because rejects are enormously expensive. Nor does it work on highly competitive mass sales items like cars or smart phones.

There's a hint that some suppliers get the better machines while rejects end up cheap on the internet. Recognising it's an imperfect market, my purchasing decisions focus on 'who will simply replace' rather than 'can I avoid all risk of getting a dud'. It means buying from one of the UK suppliers. In practice, I've done OK – no more than minor fettling required.

Not sure it would be wise to buy directly from Germany at the moment. Bad enough shipping an unlucky machine back to Germany, even worse doing it if leaving the EU causes turbulence at the same time. Easier to deal with a UK stockist if the deal goes sour.

Main thing I regret about buying a mini-lathe was the time wasted dithering about who best to get it from. Now I think learning how to use the machine was far more important than it's shortcomings.

Dave

[Alan AmbroseParticipant @alanambrose45980]

>>> There's a slightly fuller introduction to Optimum/Toptech here:

Well thanks for the link to TopTech / Yangzhou Euro Brother / Optimum (Yangzhou). That puts a slightly different shade on it. The 'German Engineers' branding thing sounds more like a little window dressing.

>>> machines are pretty much identical to the ones sold by many others

Yeah, that's what I thought, but another YouTube character, Blondihacks, suggested that a lot of the castings were common but often finished off by a bunch of different 'mom-and-pop' shops. So that, they may all look the same but not all be the same.

>>> I feel customer expectations are adrift when it comes to hobby machines … Main thing I regret about buying a mini-lathe was the time wasted dithering about who best to get it from. Now I think learning how to use the machine was far more important than it's shortcomings.

Yes, well said.

Alan

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

I think that in some cases purchasers are dazzled by the mention of German origins in respect of engineering products, not all German products are “excellent quality”. Mercedes Benz cars historically have a far from faultless record in respect of manufacturing defects, they certainly do not top the reliability polls in car magazines, neither do BMW. I think that the mythical German quality is just that, a myth, they are consistently beaten by the quality of Japanese products and now increasingly South Korean, two countries where quality systems have become almost a religion. In respect of machinery for model makers we need to live with reality that at the price we pay for our machines then they will be a little rough round the edges and need some basic fettling and adjustment/rectification to get them working how we want them to, this is all relative to the price we are actually paying for the product.
Dave W

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by Alan Ambrose on 19/10/2020 15:12:18:

>>> There's a slightly fuller introduction to Optimum/Toptech here:

Well thanks for the link to TopTech / Yangzhou Euro Brother / Optimum (Yangzhou). That puts a slightly different shade on it. The 'German Engineers' branding thing sounds more like a little window dressing.

Alan

I'm not quite sure what different shade you're seeing, Alan, or where the window dressing is. The information about "production in Yangzhou" on the optimum-machines.com webpage you linked to in your opening post is corroborated by the content of the Toptech "about us" page.

It looks like Optimum have invested quite heavily in the Yangzhou plant and have European personnel onsite [full-time?] assisting with production.

[VicParticipant @vic]

Posted by Samsaranda on 19/10/2020 15:42:19:

I think that in some cases purchasers are dazzled by the mention of German origins in respect of engineering products, not all German products are “excellent quality”. Mercedes Benz cars historically have a far from faultless record in respect of manufacturing defects, they certainly do not top the reliability polls in car magazines, neither do BMW. I think that the mythical German quality is just that, a myth, they are consistently beaten by the quality of Japanese products and now increasingly South Korean, two countries where quality systems have become almost a religion. In respect of machinery for model makers we need to live with reality that at the price we pay for our machines then they will be a little rough round the edges and need some basic fettling and adjustment/rectification to get them working how we want them to, this is all relative to the price we are actually paying for the product.
Dave W

I have to agree. Japanese and Korean cars always come at the top of the reliability stats. In fact Audi came 38th out of 39 makes in 2013. BMW and Mercedes normally appear down in the bottom 25% whilst VW are just below the half way mark. I believe the chairman of Mercedes apologised to customers for their poor reliability some time ago. Apparently even Mercedes main dealers can’t fix electrical problems on some fairly recent models. I also read some time ago that it takes twice as many workers in a VW car plant to produce a car as it does in a Honda plant, perhaps that’s the problem?

[Alan AmbroseParticipant @alanambrose45980]

>>> I'm not quite sure what different shade you're seeing

Well I might have just read it wrong…but…

On **LINK** 'Optimum Mashinen – Germany' the text reads, to me at least, as a German company that's running its own factory in China with the important stuff done by Germans , viz: 'The most important part of development, design and quality management takes place in Germany.' Interestingly though if you select a category, you're routed to http://www.stuermer-machines.com 'Stürmer Maschinen GmbH' – which actually lists a number of brands including Optimum. It goes on to say:

"In 1992, Kilian Stürmer, accompanied by a partner, also founded the OPTIMUM Maschinen Germany GmbH. Goal of these company foundations is to influence the product range, production and quality as well as the equipment of the machines directly. In Germany, OPTIMUM products are sold through a nationwide network of specialist retailers and in Europe through general importers who in turn supply the respective national retailers."

On the TopTech website, it says:

"Optimum (Yangzhou) Machinery Co., Ltd., a member of Yangzhou Euro Group, a German-China joint venture between Yangzhou Eurostar Machine Tool Factory and Optimum Maschinen Germany GmbH, was established in year 2003, located in Touqiao town, and covers an area of 34,000 square meters with 10,000 square meters of building space.

The company has more than 120 employees where 10 are technicians, 2 senior technical staff, and 3 German engineers … All the products made by the company are jointly designed by Chinese and German engineers…"

That it, it says it's a joint venture, and there are actually only 3 German engineers on-site out of 120 employees.

Maybe they're just different PR slants on the same general vibe. Well, three cheers to them and I can't imagine UK machine-tool distributors having some actual employees on the ground in a Chinese joint venture – and JV suggests investment too. But apologies in advance if I'm underestimating some British companies. Maybe the devil is in the detail.

Alan

[gerry maddenParticipant @gerrymadden53711]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 19/10/2020 10:16:06:

Presumably negligible … given what Lee wrote

[quote]
Too many that I looked at had a quill that waved about like twig in the wind , the Optimum is solid.
[/quote]

MichaelG.
.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 19/10/2020 10:25:29

…."negligible" I'm not sure what that is either Michael !

Perhaps if we all started measuring these things we could begin to sort out the sheep from the goats. Perhaps Ketan, a dedicated and progressive supplier if ever there was one, can start the ball rolling on his product range ?

Gerry

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by gerry madden on 19/10/2020 20:09:21:

[…]

…."negligible" I'm not sure what that is either Michael !

.

Dictionary definition: so small or unimportant as to be not worth considering; insignificant.

Clearly a matter of personal judgement, but I think that was Lee’s general impression.

MichaelG.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by gerry madden on 19/10/2020 20:09:21:

Perhaps if we all started measuring these things we could begin to sort out the sheep from the goats. Perhaps Ketan, a dedicated and progressive supplier if ever there was one, can start the ball rolling on his product range ?

Gerry

ARC don't sell bench drills so I don't think he will have any to measure

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