Modern efficiency !!!!!!!!!

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Clive Hartland on 20/12/2018 23:07:20:

I cannot see yet these leccie cars being a viable means of transport where you spend more time charging than driving

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They are working on that, Clive **LINK**

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-13/bmw-porsche-boast-three-minute-charging-jolt-for-electric-cars

Heaven only knows what the infrastructure would cost though

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MichaelG.

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by Clive Hartland on 20/12/2018 23:07:20:

I cannot see yet these leccie cars being a viable means of transport where you spend more time charging than driving

One of the other acknowledged obstacles at the moment to the widespread use of electric vehicles is the difficulty many users have charging their vehicles.

Yes, many people have a driveway or garage where they can charge overnight, many work at a location that can provide staff parking and charging points, but many people do not fall into either category, so where/how are they going to charge their vehicles with dependable regularity?

Having charging points on the street outside people's homes is the usual suggested solution, but what happens when you have people with electric vehicles and conventional vehicles both competing for limited parking spaces on the same street? If the driver of a conventional vehicle is excluded all of a sudden from parking in any vacant space equipped with a charger, will drivers of electric vehicles be similarly excluded from parking in spaces that don't have chargers, or will they get preferential treatment? Either way, how do we fairly apportion the availability of spaces of each kind?

I accept there are worse problems in the world needing a solution, but I can see a certain amount of injustice on the horizon, and, on the principle that nothing tends to stand in the way of "progress", I suspect it will be drivers of conventional cars, not the drivers of electric/autonomous cars, who will find themselves on the receiving end of it.

[Barnaby WildeParticipant @barnabywilde70941]

Posted by Bill Phinn on 21/12/2018 00:00:30:

I accept there are worse problems in the world needing a solution, but I can see a certain amount of injustice on the horizon, and, on the principle that nothing tends to stand in the way of "progress", I suspect it will be drivers of conventional cars, not the drivers of electric/autonomous cars, who will find themselves on the receiving end of it.

I predict that there will be far less private ownership of personal vehicles in the near future. Public transport will once again become the mass mover of people.

They have all but given up on trying to ease traffic congestion & our highways are near to saturation point. If you build a new road it doesn't ease congestion, it actually increases it. New roads are primarily planned to increase economic activity or to open up new land to developement, our highways are the arteries & veins of the economic system & the state of the modern economy is very much reliant on the blood that flows through them. If you regularly sit in traffic then have a good look around you, chances are you're a commuter & you mean nothing to the traffic planner, they're happy for you to sit there & extend your commute because you are a very low priority to them.

I grew up in the 70's when private car ownership was just beginning to take off. I remember our street had 70ish houses with fewer than 10 cars parked in the evening, making games of on street football, cricket, tennis & go cart racing all possible. If I visit that same street today then most of those houses all have 2x cars making it a first come first served parking lottery. I dread to think the size of the feed cable needed to charge all those cars on street regardless of how the charging points themselves are engineered. This is by no means a 'poor' street, these are fairly large, attractive edwardian/victorian terrace houses built in a time when driveways & garages were unheard of & it is still populated by white/blue collar families who mostly own their homes. The phenomenon of 'white flight' passed it by.

Even if you move to the outskirts & one of the more modern housing developments of 3&4 bed semi's, mostly with off street parking for 2x cars, then you still find the densities of on street parking increasing towards saturation. Our economy see's these households as all having 2 cars yet the kids are hanging around until their 30's making 3 & 4 car households increasingly normal.

Have you been to look at a housing estate being developed today? They have limited off street parking but very narrow roads.

I see a near future where we go back to the 70's. Only those households established in low density area's will own a private motor vehicle because 'lets face it' they can afford to.

Back to the 70's & can anyone remember how they kickstarted private ownership of your own car?

In the near future they're going to tax us off the roads with high VED, road tolls & the cost of the juice from those charging points. All done with the lies, the spin & the false promises that we are now so accustomed to that we are almost blind to it.

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

From the practical viewpoint Tesla leads the way on leccy cars but will be overtaken when the big boys finally get their acts together. Home charging on 240v with a dedicated charger and I can pump 20-22 miles range into the battery per hour It's possible to charger using a 13amp extension lead but then we're down to 2-3 miles range per hour of charge. ( a llghter smaller battery car will get a longer range per hour but less total range).

Tesla superchargers still lead the way on high charge rates but they are spread a little thin in the UK at the moment. They'll pump in as high a 120KW in optimum conditions but due to the needs of balancing the charge, getting battery packs to optimum charge temperatures etc – well it'll manage to go from 20%->80% charge (on a 100KW pack) in 30-35mins adding a theoretical 160 miles range. BUT temperatures make a huge difference. My theoretical 300 mile range is clobbered in frosty days down to around 200miles by needing to heat the battery and the occupants. On the other hand with the needs to balance when the battery gets over 70% full the charge time from 5% to full 100KW would be pushing towards 90mins+

It's still relatively practical for trips because you generally need a comfort break within 200miles. There was a concept car recently and concept charger that can pump in at 400KW although with current battery technology that's pushing things (which will improve).

Charging issues revolve around the usual lack of leadership. There's heaps of charging stations available but mostly in dribs and drabs of 1-2 points and run by dozens of operators often needing membership and rf cards etc to get access…. whereas simply sticking a credit card into the thing would liberate the motorist to a bigger number of options. But then there;s the leccy cost which varies from free with monthly membership to free with local support (scotland and Ireland) to cheaper if using ecotricity and an ecotricity customer (15p / KWh) to higher (non ecotricity customer 30p/KWh). There's also the differing charge port types and speeds – anything from bog slow 3KWh to 50KWh on the rapids – still way slower than the Tesla network.

Those of us with a deal for free supercharging for life of ownership will grab any opportunity to top up free but that promotion has gone and Tesla charge a not unreasonable 20p/KWh.

With the release of the new Model3 the US has seen a surge in ownershp and that's leading to queues at chargers.. again Tesla usually put in several when they do (8+ usually) but I've been to a motorway services and seen 7 out of 8 occupied and that's before the Model3 sales start UK.

All new EU cars (it'll go global) will have to have GPS tracking and that inevitably means road pricing since it;s harder to tax car electricity when home/work charging used – it'll be a double whammy of higher electricty costs (spun to explain the need to modernise the network and pay for chargers and 'encourage' housholds to use less) and the road usage tax.

[J HancockParticipant @jhancock95746]

If 'efficiency' had ever had any credence, then the saturation of our roads by 'cars' and ' lorries' would never have been allowed to happen.

Rail, or water, or lighter than air transport would be the way to have proceeded.

Unfortunately, there was an easy tax income using any form of fossil fuel.

That revenue from 'electric charging' of cars is missing , at the moment. It won't last.

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

I run a 4 x 4 diesel estate for several reasons, economy, I have to get my wifes mobility scooter in the back but the main reason is my hobby, I attend steam rally's with my stationary engines so need to tow a trailer and having a 4 x 4 gives me a better chance of moving around on wet fields, I dont see an electric vehicle, that I can afford, that would be capable of my needs because most of my battery usage would go getting out of fields and pulling up to 1.5 tons.

A van would be of no use because we are a one vehicle household and my wife cant get in one because of her medical problems.

Martin P

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by Clive Hartland on 20/12/2018 23:07:20:

I did read that the Hybrid cars that were meant to be charged and driven short distance were in fact being drive only on the petrol engine, mainly due to lack of charging facilities. Also the long waits to get them charged.

I cannot see yet these leccie cars being a viable means of transport where you spend more time charging than driving

First para – it is a simple way to beat the city bans on fossil fuel only vehicles. Tax incentives meant that these vehicles were cheaper for a company to run, than an equivalent company car with ICE. Likely the london congestion charges have been waived/reduced for such vehicles. Nothing to do wit charging facilities.

Second para – do wake up! Some will go hundreds of miles without needing to charge and most can be charged sufficiently, for the average motorist, overnight. Just look up the range specs for a Hyundai Kona! Easy 250 mile range and fast charging possible. Who often wants to drive further without a half hour, or so, break?

I, for one, don’t believe all that I read!

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

I have the same hobby as Martin Perman and need 4 wheel drive to tow a trailer plus up to 3/4 ton of engine on wet rally fields ,and when I had a 6 inch Burrell there was close to 31/4 tonnes on the back hook, which a Discovery 4 took in its stride though its expensive to buy and run ,and comfortable but with too many electronics to go wrong and AA relay membership essential,though my wife stated that she would not come to shows unless we bought a new Discovery,(a nisasan x trail was an awful tow vehicle, If I lived in Aus or other foreign partsI would pay the extra for a Toyota s reliability.I started on the roads on motor cycles (a reliable Greeves Scottish with its super rubber front suspension remember those) and then bought an1950 A40 Devon pick up ,(to carry the trials bike to events further afield)oh happy days, that Austin handbook stated lubricate the suspension every 500 miles !! In those days one learnt to be able to use the spanners,understand how it worked, and carry lots of tools plus spare plugs,points,condenser ,tape wire and string, This gaining of knowledge and the ability to get home after minor breakdowns taught mine and earlier generations a certain mechanical abilty which allowed us to tackle poblems and repair on household and other items, Nowadays vehicles are far more reliable,and items which do go wrong are difficult to diagnose and repair without some computer input, but later generations never had the chance to learn on simpler less efficient mechanics and nowaday do not have a clue how to tackle anything other than a keyboard.So whats the point of making household items repairable An awful lot of people cannot change a wheel,Oh I forgot cars dont have spare wheels now!! ( mine Do) and the trailer.Though modern vehicles are far more reliable, I have found that my old mk 1 range rover was a far better off road vehicle than my discovery with its crap electronic controls which are supposed to improve traction but dont.

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