making new lathe spindle

[BikepeteParticipant @bikepete]

Posted by blowlamp on 23/02/2015 22:57:04:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 23/02/2015 22:10:41:

Posted by blowlamp on 23/02/2015 21:59:26:

I don't think I would personally consider a taper-roller bearing conversion with that design of headstock because there is no bracing between the bearing stanchions to take the necessary preload. I'm pretty sure those supports would close up when loaded and pull them out of alignment.

.

Martin [and anyone else interested]

How much preload do you really need on the bearing in a small headstock?

I suspect that even with no preload, the result would be better than the original arrangment.

MichaelG.

.

Edit: I just found this, which is encouraging.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 23/02/2015 22:23:15

I don't think it would need a heavy preload, but I do think it's important for the headstock housing to be stable & rigid to resist loading which would now be borne mainly by the front bearing. I just wonder if that design could possibly move far enough under load to allow the rear bearing to 'disconnect' from its race.

Most taper bearing assemblies are within tubular or box shaped housings for rigidity I think.

 

Martin.

It's probably all moot anyway if going the plate/grind route, but if considering rolling bearings, is there a reason the preload must necessarily 'bridge' the two headstock ends? Far better surely to have two bearings in the 'working' end back to back, preloaded against each other, plus a 'floating' bearing at the other end. Rather as per Figure 2 here.

Edited By Bikepete on 24/02/2015 16:55:58

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by Bikepete on 24/02/2015 16:55:36:

Posted by blowlamp on 23/02/2015 22:57:04:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 23/02/2015 22:10:41:

Posted by blowlamp on 23/02/2015 21:59:26:

I don't think I would personally consider a taper-roller bearing conversion with that design of headstock because there is no bracing between the bearing stanchions to take the necessary preload. I'm pretty sure those supports would close up when loaded and pull them out of alignment.

.

Martin [and anyone else interested]

How much preload do you really need on the bearing in a small headstock?

I suspect that even with no preload, the result would be better than the original arrangment.

MichaelG.

.

Edit: I just found this, which is encouraging.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 23/02/2015 22:23:15

I don't think it would need a heavy preload, but I do think it's important for the headstock housing to be stable & rigid to resist loading which would now be borne mainly by the front bearing. I just wonder if that design could possibly move far enough under load to allow the rear bearing to 'disconnect' from its race.

Most taper bearing assemblies are within tubular or box shaped housings for rigidity I think.

Martin.

It's probably all moot anyway if going the plate/grind route, but if considering rolling bearings, is there a reason the preload must necessarily 'bridge' the two headstock ends? Far better surely to have two bearings in the 'working' end back to back, preloaded against each other, plus a 'floating' bearing at the other end. Rather as per Figure 2 here.

Edited By Bikepete on 24/02/2015 16:55:58

It doesn't look like there is an easy way to accommodate adjustment of preload in the OPs Drummond lathe by using design No2 of your link, but I thought something similar to design No4 would have been the most likely candidate to stand a chance of success given the existing layout.

Martin.

[HansParticipant @hans86050]

That is a lovely little lathe and I think worth the effort to bring her back to life.

I would have the spindle machined/plated/ground or see if there are any local machine shops that have thermal metal spraying capability such as High Velocity Oxygen Fuel. It can often be less expensive than chroming.

I would then have the head stock line-bored for the appropriate bushings instead of tapered roller bearings.

Hans

[Graeme WhitfieldParticipant @graemewhitfield34761]

Nice link. I can see how 4 would work.
If I find another headstock I think that would be worth a try.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Fig. 4 is the bearing arrangement on many small lathes, notable mini lathes and on the X-series mills.

Taper rollers typically need very little preload.

Neil

[Ray LyonsParticipant @raylyons29267]

At least you have got a sprindle and bearings. My first lathe, a very old Drummond, came with the bare headstock, the seller saying that it would be an easy task for a professional turner to make and fit the missing bits. Anyway, I made them myself. I will not go into detail but the bearings were tapered in the headstock and as I did not have any bronze of a suitable diameter, these were turned from steel and bored out to take bronze sleeves. These were shrink fitted and reamed before splitting. This setup lasted me for many years and was a great introduction to the hobby.

Your lathe looks great and I hope you have as much joy as I had with your first projects.

[Graeme WhitfieldParticipant @graemewhitfield34761]

Im sure I will

I went to second precision grinders today, one of tje many benefits of being in sheffield is there are LOTS of engineering firms, they were friendly and knowledgable. Quoted me ?60 so I left it with them. I think they took pity on me
Left them the headstock too do they can fit the spindle to the bore.
while its away ill shim the leadscrew as it has a bit of endfloat. I also have a bit of backlash in the nuts so might make some heat molded delrin nuts.
The bed had obviously haf attention as its in great condition. Will be nice when its all done.

Only thing to decide on now is whether to repaint it and polish up all the steel bits. If it was original paint there is no way id mess with it, but it isnt (painted very well though).

[HansParticipant @hans86050]

Graeme,

Are they going to bore the headstock for some bushings?

By all means polish the steel and iron surfaces that are intended to be left bare… and if it were me…. I would paint it black as that is the fitting colour for this era.

Hans

[Graeme WhitfieldParticipant @graemewhitfield34761]

If I paint it, it will be black

No-one wants to go anywhere near boring the headstock. They all told me its likely to go wrong and end up worse. I think there concerned about the size (so small) and the split in the casting. It seems to be round, and parallel, and the right size, just a bit scored. None of the pro’s seemed concerned about the bore at all.

Would be nice to have new, proper, bushes, all fresh and perfect to the spindle, but I need to be sensible about how much money I throw at it.
Hopefully the (surprisingly cheap) spindle repair will remove the play and it can go on for another 113 years!

As for the bare surfaces, any tips on clean up? I normaly remove rust with vinegar and clean smooth metal with 0000 wire wool and a bit of oil. Maybe a bit of brass wire brushing.
I never really have to worry much about removing metal though. Whats the ‘standard’ technique?

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Graeme Whitfield on 25/02/2015 12:28:02:

I went to second precision grinders today, one of tje many benefits of being in sheffield is there are LOTS of engineering firms, they were friendly and knowledgable. Quoted me ?60 so I left it with them. I think they took pity on me
Left them the headstock too do they can fit the spindle to the bore.

.

Excellent news, Graeme

MichaelG.

.

P.S. "I think they took pity on me" … Did you take that dog do the soft-eyed look for you ?

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 25/02/2015 14:44:20

[Graeme WhitfieldParticipant @graemewhitfield34761]

No, should have, might have got another ?10 off

I think they just find this little headstock funny!

First place had 2 broaching machines? Like a drill or mill which doesnt spin. Both were about 12′ high with 5′ diamater rotary tables. The cast iron upright colums were about 5′ x 4′ square box.
They said they thought my headstock would be like their little lathe which was about 8′ long.

edit… they were slotting machines.

Edited By Graeme Whitfield on 25/02/2015 14:58:12

[HansParticipant @hans86050]

Graeme,

0000 wool on the critical registering surfaces will be safe. The goal is to only remove the oxidation. Handles, fitments, and other non-critical surfaces can polished with a bit more aggressive sandpaper grits in succession (600->1000->1500) before final polishing assuming they are not chromed…as none appear to be.

Another approach that I have used that looks nice on vintage machinery of this era is to strip off the remaining paint with safe chemical strippers, rinse and dry, and then apply/buff stove black polish to the cast iron surfaces that would have been originally painted. It gives the cast iron a warm, uniform darker color to contrast with the machined surfaces. It is not as rust-resistant as paint of course, but any future oxidation can be removed with steel wool and another dab of stove black applied and polished.

https://www.lehmans.com/p-2830-stove-black-and-polish.aspx

Hans

[Graeme WhitfieldParticipant @graemewhitfield34761]

Thanks.
im still undecided as to repaint or not.

All machined surfaces are nice, clean mid grey. Its just handles, gears etc that need brightening up. They are smooth and shiny, just brown.

I painted my drills gears with dry moly lubricant.

[Graeme WhitfieldParticipant @graemewhitfield34761]

My drill, was in a right state when i got it. i wasnt too fussed about the finish on this one, and yo cant see the gears anyway.

[HansParticipant @hans86050]

Graeme,

That is a beautiful vintage bench drill. Love the cast spindle cover. Living in the Colonies, I am not familiar with that manufacturer.

Hans

[Graeme WhitfieldParticipant @graemewhitfield34761]

Its a Kerry. Backgeared, rotating and tilting table means you can get any part of the table surface under the drill.

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Graeme

Newish to the forum I see – I do like your Avtar! You will see from mine that I also use a pic of my best mate! 

Cheers

Norman

Edited By NJH on 25/02/2015 15:59:17

[Graeme WhitfieldParticipant @graemewhitfield34761]

Yeah, joined the other day. Thats our lurcher ‘maeve’. Got another too, with massive ears!

[Tony RayParticipant @tonyray65007]

Graeme, Those brown handles may well be bone – a knowledgeable Drummond collector told me and on my 1908 the leadscrew one was.

[Graeme WhitfieldParticipant @graemewhitfield34761]

Wood according to tonys lathes website but ive not looked closely.
I was meaning the handwheels etc.

[Danny M2ZParticipant @dannym2z]

Posted by Graeme Whitfield on 25/02/2015 14:19:37:

No-one wants to go anywhere near boring the headstock. They all told me its likely to go wrong and end up worse. I think there concerned about the size (so small) and the split in the casting. It seems to be round, and parallel, and the right size, just a bit scored. None of the pro's seemed concerned about the bore at all.

Would it be practical to turn a soft lap, (long enough to fit through both bearings) to the required diameter and use this to clean up the scratches in the bore?

* Danny M *

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

This is how they did Drummond headstocks and leadscrews in 1945 at the Myford works

You need a big high quality dedicated machine for consistency

Edited By Ady1 on 26/02/2015 11:15:47

[Roger HartParticipant @rogerhart88496]

Don't wish to be a misery, but aren't you in danger of chucking good money away trying to achieve perfection and accuracy you will never get with an old Drummond. Accuracy and perfection most models don't need and if you do need it – flog the Drummond and go buy a better lathe. The objective is to stop the most serious slop, after that skill will deliver reasonable accuracy.

If it were mine I would make/find a spindle size mandrel and use that to Loctite a sleeve of brass shim inside the bore – add a little extra shim where the bore is most worn if you like. Try until tightish then oil the mandrel, add Loctite in the bore and tighten cautiously. I found with old cast iron it was impossible to degrease completely so a wipe with solvent/rag is the best you can do.

[Graeme WhitfieldParticipant @graemewhitfield34761]

Bore is ok, just spindle was worn and is now being fixed.
The machine is accurate enough for what ill be doing with it. All other aspects of the lathe are very good, but the worn spindle was causing surface finish and parting problems.

This model drummond was the lathe I wanted. I waited until I found the most complete and decent one I could find. Not easy for a machine over 100 years old. It had lots of tooling and accessories. It was ?300 including a 3 speed gearbox and a clutched and braked motor and original stand. I dont think another ?60 is an issue.
?360 all in for a lovely old antique lathe with no wear and all the tooling and accessories I could need.
I dont think thats a bad deal, do you?

Sure, would have been nice to have got a boxford, but there too much money, bigger than I need and ugly as sin

[Graeme WhitfieldParticipant @graemewhitfield34761]

Tony, headstock is away at grinders, but the leadscrew handwheels handle isnt wood, looks like horn.

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