Live Steam Loco Questions

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

 

 

Posted by Sam Longley 1 on 18/12/2017 08:28:27:

Still nothing on cost of materials other than a comment on a commercial boiler!!

I cannot believe that those who work in such accurate dimensions & such rigid controls do not have at least an idea

Are you all deliberately blind to the cost or are you frightened SWMBO will find out?

If you do not know the cost do you have any idea how much you spend a week on the hobby ( perhaps you have a budget) & that might , when multiplied up over the building time of a model, give one some idea of what it cost. That might then include the all important cost of the additional tooling. Tooling, after all, must be a very big part for a new player. I certainly find it so.

I am building a small traction engine & as I come to a new component I find I have to stop because I do not have the material to make it or have B,,gered up the bit I had or tried to use the wrong bit & wasted time because I shuddered at the cost of the correct item.

It is really frustrating & may be what puts many off mid build & why there are so many part built projects about.If one knew & could plan at the start with greater accuracy there might be more finished models about.

 

Sam,

If you read my post again you will see I quoted a rough figure of £3000, a bit difficult to be accurate when no specific design is being priced? As to finding you do not have the required material to hand as you progress through the build, with all due respect surely that is a planning issue? I am building a 6" scale traction engine and am constantly looking ahead, as one part is being worked on I am also looking at the next part to be done and aquiring the necessary. It was quite easy to put a budget against the final cost at the beginning, the cost of castings was published by the supplier in a list, with the drawings the cost for bronze for bearings, large section steel for rear axle and shafts etc was easy to price from the Internet. The cost for the boiler from a reputable boiler maker only took an email. If you want a more specific example I estimated the cost of boiler, castings, sundry material and additional tooling for the 6" Savage as £10k (it's quite a large engine being just short of 1000kg complete). I am about halfway through the build with all the major expenditure items like boiler, castings, bearing material, shafts and rubber tyres vulcanised to the wheels completed and am in round terms £2k in hand. The OP did state in his question on price "assuming all equipment is available" but I did qualify in my reply that may not include items like cutting tools. This hobby can be as expensive as you wish to make it! Maybe you would like to contribute what the costs have been for your engine rather than complain others are not being up front?

Paul.

Edited By Paul Kemp on 18/12/2017 12:10:23

[Phil H1Participant @philh196021]

Dave,

I think one useful idea is to create some FAQs (forgive me if they are already on here that I haven't spotted). We all know the common questions.

I think this could also apply to the question asked in this thread too i.e., the same point is raised over and over again e.g., is Tich big enough to pull an adult, which engines do work well – surely a league table of common designs can be knocked together from the wealth of experience that was here. The table might have all sorts of interesting points that a beginner might be interested in e.g., approximate cost range, weight of the finished engine, pulling power – xx number of adults etc. Yes some of these things would vary depending on build quality so I'm obviously talking about the average to good builds.

Creating the tables might actually help to tease one or two back and or at least enter the debate. When its done – post it and refer people to it.

The same type of thing could be done for the common workshop questions that appear over and over again.

Phil H

[Stewart MasonParticipant @stewartmason95803]

Hi all. I've been digesting the replies, and very good they are too. I must thank you all for taking the time and effort to reply, even if some have generated a little friction. It's a consequence of the media we use.

I'm lucky in that I have at my disposal a well equipped workshop belonging to my employer, (Fire Service) with such things as a plasma cutter, MIG welder, gas torch, sheet metal bender, pillar drill, grinders, big vices, anvil, and so on. Everything that is needed to maintain a large fleet of (sometimes aging) fire appliances. There is also an extensive scrap bin, with steel, aluminium, brass, and so on. Some of it is in the form of old equipment, but if one is willing to put in a bit of effort it is very good stuff. We are also surrounded by a plethora of small businesses only too happy to take on small machining jobs, and we have contractors that sell everything under the sun, from screws and bolts, to complex fittings for various gear, paint, tools, you name it.

I have a garage with a big workbench and a hefty vice and properly wired for power, and an upstairs room with a solid work table, vice and good light. I have a small but growing selection of hand tools and my little adept lathe.

So, the very basics are there, and I also have a local club with 3 1/2, 5" and 7 1/4 in gauge tracks. Like I said, I've yet to join, but I intend to visit in the new year, and peruse the facilities and members over a few brews and make my decision.

I have been looking at loco designs and the 'LBSC' designs are my favorite, which fits well with my love of Austerity era model making, and the tools of the era. I particularly love the 'Petrolea' the 'Rainhill', 'Canterbury Lamb', 'Juliet', don't ask me why, I think I just like small/older locos.

I have read the excellent Tabletop Machining book by the Sherline chap, and numerous books on milling, lathe work, and other fabrication techniques, as I am an avid reader. I am slowly building a small engineering library it seems.

I think it would maybe be best to wait until after my club visit before I pick a design, as they may tip the balance in favour of a particular type for a beginner, although the ultimate decision rests with me of course.

I am particularly determined to do this job with an older lathe, as I have no love of the chinese machines, and I want to experience what it was like to build such a model with the gear that was available to the average model engineer at the time, however hard that may be. That is the challenge. Even if this means rebuilding an older machine as a project in it's self with the aid of a club, as for me the equipment is just as important and beautiful as the models, which is part of the reason I'd rather avoid a new lathe. I just like the old stuff.

Sorry of this seems a rambling post, the morning coffee hasn't kicked in yet…

Stew.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Stewart Mason on 28/12/2017 10:57:05:

…

I think it would maybe be best to wait until after my club visit before I pick a design, as they may tip the balance in favour of a particular type for a beginner, although the ultimate decision rests with me of course.

I am particularly determined to do this job with an older lathe, as I have no love of the chinese machines, and I want to experience what it was like to build such a model with the gear that was available to the average model engineer at the time, however hard that may be. That is the challenge.

…

Stew.

I hesitate to give advice because we're all different, but I wonder if you are in danger of entering a Marathon before learning to walk?

A small locomotive will take about 1500 hours work and cost, say, £2500. The builder requires a substantial range of skills – planning work, interpreting drawings (containing errors & omissions), turning, drilling, boring, lapping and filing with good accuracy. Brazing, working with castings, steel, copper and other materials. Fitting and finishing. Quite a tall order when you remember that chaps did 7 year apprenticeships. Don't be surprised to make hundreds of mistakes while learning, pushing up the time, money and emotional costs, perhaps to breaking point.

You also want to use old-time techniques and tools. That's very creditable, but it will steepen your learning curve and everything will take longer. Be aware that many old techniques are time-wasters. For example, old-timers rarely owned a milling machine but using one will save you many hours of work. Likewise, old-timers mostly cut metal by hand, which is just tedious semi-skilled manual labour. My advice: buy a Chinese band-saw!

But my main suggestion is that you start small and spend a year or two developing skills before even thinking about selecting a loco. A small stationary engine like Stewart Hart's Pottymill will teach you a lot without breaking the bank. After you have it running on compressed air, making a boiler to steam it will teach you even more. I also found building Jan Ridder's Low Temperature Stirling to be highly educational in other ways – far more attention to reducing friction compared with a steam engine. Neither engine uses castings: one of the Stuart Kits would be a good way of learning about them.

The other big advantage of deliberately investing in learning is that actually using tools and materials puts you in a much better place when it comes to moving forward. You will have a much better understanding of your work-rate, skill-levels, tools, shortcomings and motivation. It might change your mind completely about tool preferences, what you want to build, austerity model-making, and much else. Or experience might confirm your interests and direction. It doesn't matter, my point is that naivety is far more likely to stuff you up than acquiring skills.

Whatever you do, enjoy it!

Dave

[Stewart MasonParticipant @stewartmason95803]

Good point Dave. I have a certain level of mechanical knowledge, but I am very much a beginner in terms of model engineering, and I am very happy to learn and be taught.

I spent my teen years restoring a selection of basket case motorbikes, did a YTS certificate in light engineering, where I learned to weld (Arc and MIG) along with a little brazing, did some casting of things in sand, lathe work, sheet metal fabrication etc, and then a few years later became a time served motor mechanic. Jump forward a decade and I then gained a commercial pilots licence (having sold all my snap-on tools to help fund it)…and learned about hydraulics, piston and jet engines and so on, so I have a basic understanding of engineering and mechanical principles, but nothing more than scratching the surface. I have a huge need to make things, anything, as I can't stand for my hands to be idle. I've always built models, and worked from plans, model aircraft, cars, trains, and so on, but now I feel the need to build a bigger boys toy, and a live steam loco would be amazing. I am a terrible tight-wad, and a lover of thrift and 'make do and mend' and like to spend my money very wisely, so I'm not going to jump into anything without thorough research. I'm 44 now and looking for a lifetime hobby, so it needs to be right for me. At the moment I've not spent more than a few quid on books and ME magazines and basic but good quality hand tools, pretty much what an apprentice machinist would have, but sooner or later I will have to decide on a project. Thank you all once again for your advice.

[Stewart MasonParticipant @stewartmason95803]

PS I see that ME has just started a series on making a vertical boiler. Good place to start?

[Bob YouldonParticipant @bobyouldon45599]

Good morning Stewart

I can confirm the hobby does somewhat take over. I started building my first locomotive, a LBSC Juliet when I was sixteen and I'm still building locomotives almost sixty years later! I started out on an ex lease lend Atlas lathe with a vertical slide for milling and a 1/4" capacity drill press, I really had nothing more than that. A few of my father drills and I remember buying my first 6BA tap and die from Aird's in Brighton. I suppose the rest is history.

Like yourself I read probably everyhing there is to read from the old chap, insperational. I wouldn't like to suggest a first locomoptive, what I would say have a look on youtube at the Littlelec competitions, you will get some idea of the power of the smaller designs.

To join a club is essential, I would suggest you have a look at the websites of the Southern Federation , Northern association and the Midlands association, all of which carry information of the various chubs in your area.]

Remember, the first time you attack a piece of metal with a hacksaw, you're no longer a beginner, you're in there with the rest of us!

Yours, still building,

Bob

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Yes the boiler that has just started to be featured in the mag would be a good practice piece, I have seen a few people take on a loco or traction engine as their first boiler and ended up with a large pile of unusable copper!

[J HancockParticipant @jhancock95746]

Just be a bit aware that a vertical boiler and a locomotive boiler are two completely different 'beasts' to make.

The latter will punish you if more than one step of construction is made 'out-of-sequence' and needs careful selection of silver solder grades at each stage too.

Personally, I think A Farmers book is a ' must read' first. From Abe, not Ebay.

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