Keyless car theft has never been so easy

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

Burglars likely to try you grandparents hiding places first, so Don't! Tea caddy, bottom of wardrobe, tops of wall cupboards.

I keep my keys in my pocket as much as poss and take them with me, then I know where they are.

I think that car keys could be lobbed into any old tin whilst at home and they would be safe from transmitting.

John

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

My suggestion of a tin was for shielding, not hiding. Unfortunatly there have been cases of armed persons just demanding the keys. Best advice in that case is to hand them over.

Robert.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I once watched a movie at Warwick University Arts Centre (just to demonstrate that I am cultured) and afterwards returned to my Cortina estate and started it up… I was about to drive off when i realised it was rather tidy inside. I sheepishly got out and found my own, scruffier, example.

Some years earlier, a mate of mine had a Hillman Avenger. I started it by using a dead matchstick to turn the ignition.

Neil

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Unlocked and got into my cortina then tried to put the key into the ignition but it wouldn't work

I'd unlocked the door with the petrol cap key which was about half the size

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

I own a Ducati Multistrada 1200 S touring. 2017. I also own a 2016 Vauxhall Vivaro Bi turbo 170 bhp. I also own a 2017 Jaguar 5.0 AWD F-type Jaguar.|Plus I do all my banking on my Phone. I have never had any problems with someone trying to steal my identity or anything else. Old farts society is unfortunately a falicy. Have an old computer & a duff old phone if you will. But In this modern world you need to get real. I also have the latest software to keep me safe . I use Bitdefender. Stay safe guys & sorry if you think the world is after you, but matbe there not.

Regards from Steviegtr.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 01/06/2023 00:09:19:

I once watched a movie at Warwick University Arts Centre (just to demonstrate that I am cultured) and afterwards returned to my Cortina estate and started it up… I was about to drive off when i realised it was rather tidy inside. I sheepishly got out and found my own, scruffier, example.

Some years earlier, a mate of mine had a Hillman Avenger. I started it by using a dead matchstick to turn the ignition.

Neil

A colleagues wife worked at Pucklechurch Prison when it specialised in young offenders. She taught her husband all her boys knew about twocking, Taking Without Consent, and he became the go to guy at work whenever people lost keys or locked themselves out of their cars. (Top quality design made it simple to lock cars with the keys inside.) Anyway, not difficult to get into cars made well into my middle age with a hook made from a coat hanger, and even easier with a length of strip steel with a notch in it. Also easy to hot-wire cars – the cables weren't protected. Hope they're better made now, but a fit young man could defeat most 20th century ignition locks simply by wrenching the steering wheel. Anyone could do it with a crowbar!

I don't think twocking was high-skilled work. My mate lent me his 750cc mini, the early model that opened the doors by pulling cords. Late for work, I rushed up to it and opened the door with what turned out to be my cheapo briefcase key. Didn't even look like a car key! The lock must have been very basic.

Dave

[John Doe 2Participant @johndoe2]

Posted by Steviegtr on 01/06/2023 04:07:43: I have never had any problems with someone trying to steal my identity or anything else. Old farts society is unfortunately a falicy. Have an old computer & a duff old phone if you will. But In this modern world you need to get real. I also have the latest software to keep me safe . I use Bitdefender. Stay safe guys & sorry if you think the world is after you, but matbe there not.

Regards from Steviegtr.

How do you deal with emails, when a company wants a scan of your passport, or other personal data, address, bank account number, for example?

Not having a go at all; genuine question. Do you use encryption software or something?

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by John Doe 2 on 01/06/2023 11:32:15:

Posted by Steviegtr on 01/06/2023 04:07:43: I have never had any problems with someone trying to steal my identity or anything else. Old farts society is unfortunately a falicy. Have an old computer & a duff old phone if you will. But In this modern world you need to get real. I also have the latest software to keep me safe . I use Bitdefender. Stay safe guys & sorry if you think the world is after you, but matbe there not.

Regards from Steviegtr.

How do you deal with emails, when a company wants a scan of your passport, or other personal data, address, bank account number, for example?

Not having a go at all; genuine question. Do you use encryption software or something?

I have scanned & sent a few documents like my Passport & driving licence. The people who required them do not use any sort of encription.

As said I use Bitdefender total security & it looks after the P.C. Plus i have it on my Phone too. Before that I had a large amount of money paid out of my Paypal account. Luckily I did not loose any money & Paypal stopped the payments going out. So that is when I decided to get better security.

All my e-mails are scanned when received etc. I know it is a nasty place to be in but life must go on. It is more difficult too now because all the Banks have closed down. The nearest one to me now is nearly 20 miles away & impossible to park due to location.

[vic neweyParticipant @vicnewey60017]

If the thieves big loop not only opens and starts the car it must also continue to transmit as they drive away or otherwise the car would start beeping etc as does my Toyota if I walk away with the engine running

[John Doe 2Participant @johndoe2]

Ah OK. So you HAVE had people trying to steal things from you electronically, (via Paypal).

And you don't worry about hackers intercepting scans of passport and driving licence etc. in open emails? It's something that worries me.

Apple iMessage is encrypted between Apple devices.

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Posted by John Doe 2 on 01/06/2023 11:32:15:

Posted by Steviegtr on 01/06/2023 04:07:43: I have never had any problems with someone trying to steal my identity or anything else. Old farts society is unfortunately a falicy. Have an old computer & a duff old phone if you will. But In this modern world you need to get real. I also have the latest software to keep me safe . I use Bitdefender. Stay safe guys & sorry if you think the world is after you, but matbe there not.

Regards from Steviegtr.

How do you deal with emails, when a company wants a scan of your passport, or other personal data, address, bank account number, for example?

Not having a go at all; genuine question. Do you use encryption software or something?

Do people actually intercept emails containing passport details etc?? 

Tony

Edited By Tony Pratt 1 on 01/06/2023 17:45:27

[Peter Cook 6Participant @petercook6]

Posted by Tony Pratt 1 on 01/06/2023 17:43:40:

Posted by John Doe 2 on 01/06/2023 11:32:15:

Posted by Steviegtr on 01/06/2023 04:07:43: I have never had any problems with someone trying to steal my identity or anything else. Old farts society is unfortunately a falicy. Have an old computer & a duff old phone if you will. But In this modern world you need to get real. I also have the latest software to keep me safe . I use Bitdefender. Stay safe guys & sorry if you think the world is after you, but matbe there not.

Regards from Steviegtr.

How do you deal with emails, when a company wants a scan of your passport, or other personal data, address, bank account number, for example?

Not having a go at all; genuine question. Do you use encryption software or something?

Do people actually intercept emails containing passport details etc?

You probably want to worry less about the chances of interception, and more about the security of the people asking.

One of my pension providers has just let me know that they have been hacked, and some of my personal data “exfiltrated” (i.e. accessed and/or copied) by the hackers.

Lots of reassuring words follow, and a free one year subscription to an identity theft monitoring service! But ho-hum.

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

Posted by Tony Pratt 1 on 01/06/2023 17:43:40:

Posted by John Doe 2 on 01/06/2023 11:32:15:

Posted by Steviegtr on 01/06/2023 04:07:43: I have never had any problems with someone trying to steal my identity or anything else. Old farts society is unfortunately a falicy. Have an old computer & a duff old phone if you will. But In this modern world you need to get real. I also have the latest software to keep me safe . I use Bitdefender. Stay safe guys & sorry if you think the world is after you, but matbe there not.

Regards from Steviegtr.

How do you deal with emails, when a company wants a scan of your passport, or other personal data, address, bank account number, for example?

Not having a go at all; genuine question. Do you use encryption software or something?

Do people actually intercept emails containing passport details etc??

Tony

Edited By Tony Pratt 1 on 01/06/2023 17:45:27

Newspapers, despite their protestations are doing it all the time. It's their main source of information. They don't do it directly of course. They employ "private detectives" on their behalf so the higher echelons can claim ignorance. Bank accounts, mobile phones are all accessible if you know what you're doing. Laptops can be hacked and keystrokes recorded. The best ones leave no trace so the person thinks their security measures are excellent.

[Chris Pearson 1Participant @chrispearson1]

When I get in, I put the key to my modern in an old tobacco tin. The battery has been taken out of the spare.

How do we cope nowadays without tobacco tins? Years ago I bought a job lot of taps and dies, all of which came in their own St. Bruno tins – BSF, Whit, BSP, etc.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

So do radio keys transmit permanently then, or only when you use them?

It seems odd all this keeping the thing in a tap-&-die tin, the microwave oven or the like if the thing is effectively "off" until you point it vaguely at your car and press the button. Otherwise you'd be continually having to recharge it.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by Nigel Graham 2 on 04/06/2023 00:13:18:

So do radio keys transmit permanently then, or only when you use them?

It seems odd all this keeping the thing in a tap-&-die tin, the microwave oven or the like if the thing is effectively "off" until you point it vaguely at your car and press the button. Otherwise you'd be continually having to recharge it.

So to clear a few things up. My Ducati motorcycle is keyless as such As long as I have the key close to the bike I can activate the handlebar ignition to turn on. It will then start at the touch of the starter button. If My key is on the shelf in the garage, around 6 feet away it does not work. The car works completely different & I assume all modern Jaguar Landrover vehicles work the same. I have to press unlock on the remote, I guess this is only active with the press of the said button. Although If i approach my car & touch the door handle the car unlocks. You then of course have the imobiliser within the key which has been law for many years on all vehicles, which stopped most joyriders from knicking your prized posession. Again for this to work I need to be near the car. If more than say 3 feet away it will not work. Also if I unlock my car & leave the key outside the car. It will not start & says key not found

The van has a remote unlock on the key & only works at a press of the unlock button. Then the standard imobiliser, as in the key has to be within a few inches of the ignition barrel for it to work. Which the car & bike do not. Just in the vicinity.

Might I add the few stolen vehicles that this thread mentions are from people who leave their keys in a coat pocket or near the door. Which is asking for trouble.

Using your phone for banking etc. This is my go to. Pretty much no other option with most Banks closed etc. After my bad experience some years ago with paypal I now have double activation. If on the pc I have to put a code in which is sent to my phone to prove it is me. All my important apps on the phone, banking etc are protected with fingerprint activation. Plus Bitdefender is always active & scanning for scams etc.

If you do not have a modern phone with the latest updates then i'm not sure of the protection. I have seen some folk post threads on using windows 7 etc. Again probably not a wise choice if you want the best in security. I am running Window 11 with full complete security software , which does regular updates. Believe me guys it is not that expensive to use the latest software.

Stay safe guys. Just on a note. Due to this thread. Me & my ex, now landlady Bev taking me for a delicious KFC tonight. When she held her credit card to the machine i looked behind me just to make sure there was noone with a wire coathanger or magic box scanning her card.

Steve.

Edited By Steviegtr on 04/06/2023 01:08:16

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Nigel Graham 2 on 04/06/2023 00:13:18:

So do radio keys transmit permanently then, or only when you use them?

It seems odd all this keeping the thing in a tap-&-die tin, the microwave oven or the like if the thing is effectively "off" until you point it vaguely at your car and press the button. Otherwise you'd be continually having to recharge it.

I wondered that too. Reading Wikipedia's article on Remote Keyless Systems suggests only one type of fob actively responds to the car. They seem to be fitted to high-end cars, the sort stolen to order, not the average banger I drive!

A potential problem with shielding an active device in a tin is that the receiver might flatten the battery by winding the gain up in an attempt to stay in contact with the car. Mobile phones in areas of poor reception can do this. But I think it unlikely, because most cars are parked a considerable distance from their owner whilst she's at work or shopping. So I expect the fobs receiver is always on, deaf as a post and consuming a couple of microamps, but it doesn't transmit until it hears the car loud and clear. No problem with the car polling with a low power signal because it has a massive battery.

Security is a constant battle between the clever chaps who develop systems and the clever chaps who break them. Usually it's only a matter of time before a security system gives way, so they always have to be backed up by something else, such as the police turning up. Our job is to delay the bad-guy for as long as possible, for example by locking the car in a garage with a decent door, with a Denver Clamp, and a steering wheel lock. None of these are good enough in themselves, but the combination will put most thieves off.

Make the car less attractive. Don't leave money or anything that might be valuable visible inside. Personalised number plates attract thieves because those cars are likely to contain lots of expensive bling. Not owning a high-end car at all works quite well. Ordinary modern cars are fairly well protected which makes them more bother to nick than is worth it.

Dave

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

People are confusing Remote Entry, Keyless Ignition and Keyless Entry.
A given vehicle may have one or a combination of these.

Remote Entry.
This is the "traditional" remote locking. You press a button on the key (some older cars had a separate fob) and the door(s) unlock. The doors also have a key slot and can be unlocked with the key in normal use. The key must be physically used to turn the car on and start it. Normally this also unlocks the steering.. The key / fob only tranmits a signal while you press the button. The signal may be radio or optical (like TV remote). The early systems were susceptable to "grabbing" wher soneone receiveed the code as you locked the car and then re-transtmitted it when you left. This gave entry to the car. Later systems used encription or/and "rolling codes" to prevent this.

Keyless ignition / Push button start
The car detects the presence of the key/fob inside the car and enables the ignition / engine start using a button. This is an extension of the immoblisers that used a transponder chip inside a conventional key. This was short range ad onyl read when the key is in the ignition slot. It would turn off the immobliser and unlock the steering or sometimes the key slot itself. Typically passive i.e. no battery required the transponder is powered by the reader. Basically the same as contactless credit cards. The keyless ones may or may not need a a batterry but they only respond (transmit) in response to a signal inside the car. This is a two-way process and data is is encrypted or/and rolling code. Once the ignition is on removal of the key may generate a warning but for safety reasons the car will still run and drive.

Keyless Entry.
The key/fob has a transponder like the keyless ignition (may be the same device) but the antenna that "talks" to the key/fob is active outside the car, close to the doors. Typically the door has no visible key slot. When the key/fob is in range and correctly replys to a request from the car the door locks are enabled and the door will unlock when a button is pressed, the hanle moved or just touched (depending on design)
Again the key/fob only responds to signals transmitted by the car. The data is is encrypted or/and rolling code. The fob is not transmitting all the time. The car may use proximity sensors to detect someone near the car before transmitting. Signals are radio and may be various frequency bands. transmit power and receiver sensitivity are both low so range is only a few feet

The current threat relies on two features. The safety issue that the car will still drive after the keyless device is removed and the wireless link between the key/fob and and car. The equipment used by the crooks is a two -way (full duplex) radio link. This receives the signal at one end and retransmits it at the other. Typically using another radio link on a different frequency between two portable boxes. One is helds next to the car and the oher near the house where they think the key/fob may be. The key/fob end has a more powerful transmitter, sensitive receiver and larger antenna so wil work at a greater distance from the key/fob.

The main point is that this kit ONLY provides an extended link between the car and the key/fob it does not need to "know" anything about the codes or encryption.

Robert.

Edited By Robert Atkinson 2 on 04/06/2023 11:39:48

Edited By Robert Atkinson 2 on 04/06/2023 11:41:54

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

Dave, security is three way battle between the clever people who develop the systems, the dodgy ones who need to break them and the poor sod who paid to be seriously inconvenienced every time they have to use them.

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

In the seventies I had a run of Saab 99's, which were never stolen! the key was in the centre console, not the steering column and could not be removed unles the car was put in reverse, which locked the car in reverse. I bought a nice 4 door sport with twin carbs, but no keys, took me about three hours to make the special tool to get the lock out of the centre console, and even when it was out, you could only go and get a key to match, because you still couldnt get it out of reverse till you had a key! Today thieves only take top end motors, they steal to order, and the manufacturers are trying to be too clever! Old fashioned mechanical systems are much harder to beat, but much more expensive to make. electronics cost peanuts!

Phil

Edited By Phil Whitley on 04/06/2023 12:38:40

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Way back in the 60's my Dad had a Ford Anglia (the sloping rear window one). One day the chap from down the street came and asked if he could try our key in his Ford as he'd lost his. Success, enabled him to drive to the shoe makers and get another key cut. Rumour had it there were only 6 keys for the whole Ford range. No steering locks. I once left my Vauxhall Viva at a friend's farm (too much sauce the night before). Went back to get it next day forgot to take the key. Ten minutes with a bit of wire and it's going, drove it home no bother. Despite their drawbacks, modern systems are a lot better than that

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, the last Vauxhall Cavalier that I had between 2001/7 had a key that would remotely lock/unlock the doors, had to be physically in the ignition switch for the car to start because of a chip inside the key, so if another key that would turn the ignition without the chip was used, the car would not start. The buttons had been used that much, they started to fail and stopped working altogether, along with the plastic part that you held falling to bits. So I went to a Vauxhall agent to get a new key, but it wasn't an off the shelf thing, I had to book the car in for a couple of hours or so, where upon they had to programme a new key for it. As it happens there was some sort of a small recall job to do on part of chassis, which they did at the same time, which was probably why it was in for the time period they booked it in for. Even the spare key, which wasn't a remote one, and didn't have a battery in it, had a chip in it for pairing it to the car.

Regards Nick.

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

A friend I shared a flat with at university was mortified one morning to discover that the Krooklock had been nicked from his Austin A40…worth more than the car presumably.

[Chris Pearson 1Participant @chrispearson1]

Posted by Nigel Graham 2 on 04/06/2023 00:13:18:

So do radio keys transmit permanently then, or only when you use them?

It seems odd all this keeping the thing in a tap-&-die tin, the microwave oven or the like if the thing is effectively "off" until you point it vaguely at your car and press the button. Otherwise you'd be continually having to recharge it.

No it is not off. With my almost current generation of car, all I have to do is to be near a door. Then when I pull the handle (generally twice) that door unlocks, but the others do not.

At the very least, the keys must be listening so that they can respond when they are close enough to a door.

It is all quite wonderful and there are of course security benefits. Should a miscreant be pursuing me, I can easily get into my car. I don't have to fumble about with an ignition switch, I just press go. The car goes because the key is in the car. Then once I move away, the doors lock so even if the miscreant tries to keep up, he (or she) will not be able to get at me.

The best bit is that when I am returning to my car in a supermarket car park; and when somebody is walking past the boot, I can open it. Never fails!

[DellParticipant @dell]

I have keyless go on my Mercedes and if I press the fob twice quickly the first locks the car and the second turns the fob off until I press unlock.

Dell

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