Is Model Engineering in Decline

[Brian WarwickParticipant @brianwarwick88192]

I don't think its in decline simply a changing world, I have been fortunate enough to visit a Big Bang Fair where school children exhibited their work and have been blown away by the subjects covered and the level of knowledge and more importantly their massive enthusiasm for all forms of engineering.

I also recall a comment made by a model engineer from a local group over 40 years ago saying the group was dying and its still there to this day, So obviously its a question that has been asked for some years and I am sure will be asked for many more years to come.

[ronan walshParticipant @ronanwalsh98054]

I think the problem is years ago, most people lived in houses rather than what are now comically called apartments, or it would be comical if young people did not have to take on a lifetimes debt for a place only slightly larger than Harry Potters cupboard under the stairs. If you think i am joking, have a look at one, terrible.

My grandparents, on both sides had very ordinary houses but with gardens large enough to make growing your own veg worthwhile, back when people had to do things like that. In both cases there was also enough room to build a pretty decent sized shed.

And as you all know once a shed is built, it makes a great bolt hole to hide from the wimmins/swmbo/'er indoors. Once in the shed you might as well do something, home brew, carpentry, fiddling with motorbikes or cars, model engineering, or all of the above.

That is something that is simply not going to be open to most younger people in the future, trying to re-enact the industrial revolution in a pokey apartment is simply something that is not going to happen. Even with modern houses, the developers cram as many of them onto a plot of land as possible, a friend has a garden just big enough to fit two wheely bins.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Not in decline, judged by the number of "newbie" joiners of this Forum, and their questions.

Also, the many offers of advice and help to them from the more experienced.

To my mind the concern is the demographic. Setting up in Model Engineering can be costly, especially if all done at once, which is difficult for the younger would be entrants. They have mortgages to pay and families to support.

So the hobby tends to have "Empty Nesters" predominate

The younger element (of any age) deserve the encouragement of the older generation. If younger entrants do not arrive, the hobby WILL go into decline. And the world will the poorer for that.

Howard

[brickyParticipant @bricky]

I do think there s a decline in our hobby,I think it is the expense of setting up as the younger generation unlike us oldies who were used to saving and taking years to aquire a workshop they want everything now.The cost of living for the younger age group and bringing up a family makes it hard for any youngster to get into the hobby,even though the machine tools have never been cheaper.It took me 40 years to end up with my equipped workshop.

Frank

[Thaddeus Swarfburn IIIParticipant @thaddeusswarfburniii]

Posted by Jon Lawes on 18/08/2018 14:31:00:

…but if you were to gauge the hobby by some of the posts on online media you would feel very intimidated.

It's no wonder teenagers feel more comfortable with gaming, which provides lots of constant positive feedback (beating a level, winning a multiplayer game). Some of the interactions here would put beginners off.

Completely agree on the first point. I left a Facebook group of machinists, heavily US-based, as so many of the members were idiots with a chip on their shoulder, and the group moderator showed no interest in discouraging the behaviour.

I agree with the second point until it comes to online gaming, where so many seem to have intimate knowledge of the odd proclivities of their opponents' mothers. The whole "Gamergate" situation was a tar baby of epic proportions, and you're better off not googling the details.

With regards to our dear model engineering, I feel we're in a bit of a golden age. Access to tools and technologies is better than it's ever been. We have a wide range of publications and internet forums to choose from. I bought a brand new benchtop mill for less than two weeks wages, which was probably unthinkable thirty years ago. We can convert our machines to simple CNC setups for under USD1000. The Maker movement will bring in new blood as surely some of the builders of 3D printers will look to increase their abilities. The average age of MEs is a bit worrying, but hasn't it traditionally been an "old man's" hobby? Who else has the free time but the retired? With an 8 year old in the house (she's had a couple of lessons on the lathe already) I only get three or four hours a week in the shed.

[Boiler BriParticipant @boilerbri]

 

Not yet because looking at our club the average age is 75

Been trying to get an engineering apprentice with no luck

Conclusion is it will decline in future years.

Sad really

But then there are the Chinese 🤗

B

Edited By Boiler Bri on 18/08/2018 20:10:05

[ronan walshParticipant @ronanwalsh98054]

Its the same in a lot of pass times. When i go to the shooting range, its like "The last of the summer wine". I think fellas in their 40's are about as young as it gets. The young people do show up, but they think it should be 100% fun all the time, instantly gratifying, and no work involved. I think it is like that with a lot of young people now.

Also having a "dirty hand job" is a bit of a stigma with the younger ones. I was proud to have an engineering trade, but now its all management and marketing and all that rubbish they want.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

I think in most cases you don't get around to this hobby until you are in your 40s

Socialising, women, drink, work, outdoor activities, basically young male stuff, all gets in the way

Once you slow down a bit your directions in life change and ME appears on the radar

[LimpetParticipant @limpet]

Posted by Boiler Bri on 18/08/2018 20:09:33:

Not yet because looking at our club the average age is 75

I think I'd disagree as I seem to recall when I started my apprenticeship, retired this weekend so still quite young as per your average age, the average age of the model engineers was 60s/70s. I believe there are the same or more people out there making / modelling in the variety of disciplines available and "migrate" to model engineering as we know it in later years when time and funds become available.

[Ron LadenParticipant @ronladen17547]

Well in answer to my original question it would seem there are mixed views and opinions, some thinking it is in decline others not. With regards to encouraging young people into the hobby that would be difficult if our family is anything to go by.

We have 5 grandsons, ages 22, 21, 18, 13 and 9 and they have all visited my workshop. From what I can gather the oldest two are interested in nights out, drinking, women, football and cars. They are in their early twenties so I guess its to be expected. The 18 year old doesnt seem to be interested in anything much at all, he goes to work comes home and watches TV, goes to work watches TV, goes to work….etc etc. The 13 year old is grafted to an X Box, so much so if you wanted to take it away from him it would probably need surgery to remove it. The youngest grandson did take a bit more interest, after I explained the lathe he did ask if he could have a go. I put up some alu bar and he did a bit of turning and facing which he said "was great" whether that sparked anything that will lead to further interest I wonder.

They are all young, but who knows in the future one or two of them may get interested, you never know and I live in hope.

Edited By Ron Laden on 19/08/2018 14:39:10

Edited By Ron Laden on 19/08/2018 14:40:52

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Perhaps my dim recall of scientific method will help.

To decide if something is in decline one must first identify what 'it' is, and then find a suitable way of measuring it. Anything else is opinion, supposition, or circumstantial. Also liable to other faults such as observer bias, Hawthorne Effect, prejudice, and jumping to conclusions.

Problem One is 'What is a Model Engineer?' That itself is subject to wide interpretation. As we haven't agreed a definition, all bets are off.

Problem Two is 'What is a suitable measure of Model Engineering?' There are plenty of alternatives:

• Value of Model Engineer spending in the High Street over the last 100 years. This is badly flawed because the High Street is decline. The way we shop has changed.
• Model Engineering posts on the Internet over the last 20 years. This is badly flawed because the internet is a newbie, and because many Model Engineers don't use it.
• Man hours spent on the hobby over the last 100 years – no-one knows
• Club membership – the problem here is deciding if falling membership and the rising age of members is measuring Model Engineering or just the Club. Pubs are much less popular than they used to be, but that doesn't mean the Brits have given up alcohol.
• etc.

Neil made a good point about the maker movement. In that context 'Model Engineering' is flourishing. My view is that skills described so well by Sparey, Westbury and others were the starting point, not the be all and end all. If someone chooses to use CAD, CNC, 3D printing to make widgets rather than LBSC locos that's building on sound ME foundations, not heresy.

Dave

[Barnaby WildeParticipant @barnabywilde70941]

Posted by Ron Laden on 19/08/2018 14:36:09:

Well in answer to my original question it would seem there are mixed views and opinions, some thinking it is in decline others not. With regards to encouraging young people into the hobby that would be difficult if our family is anything to go by.

We have 5 grandsons, ages 22, 21, 18, 13 and 9 and they have all visited my workshop. From what I can gather the oldest two are interested in nights out, drinking, women, football and cars. They are in their early twenties so I guess its to be expected. The 18 year old doesnt seem to be interested in anything much at all, he goes to work comes home and watches TV, goes to work watches TV, goes to work….etc etc. The 13 year old is grafted to an X Box, so much so if you wanted to take it away from him it would probably need surgery to remove it. The youngest grandson did take a bit more interest, after I explained the lathe he did ask if he could have a go. I put up some alu bar and he did a bit of turning and facing which he said "was great" whether that sparked anything that will lead to further interest I wonder.

They are all young, but who knows in the future one or two of them may get interested, you never know and I live in hope.

Edited By Ron Laden on 19/08/2018 14:39:10

Edited By Ron Laden on 19/08/2018 14:40:52

Can we ask what you were doing when you were 22, 21, 18, 13 & 9 ?

Were you chasing wimmin in nightclubs after your team won the football or were you stood by your grandad as he spanked a flange on his anvil?

[Barnaby WildeParticipant @barnabywilde70941]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 19/08/2018 15:22:03:

Perhaps my dim recall of scientific method will help.

To decide if something is in decline one must first identify what 'it' is, and then find a suitable way of measuring it. Anything else is opinion, supposition, or circumstantial. Also liable to other faults such as observer bias, Hawthorne Effect, prejudice, and jumping to conclusions.

Problem One is 'What is a Model Engineer?' That itself is subject to wide interpretation. As we haven't agreed a definition, all bets are off.

Problem Two is 'What is a suitable measure of Model Engineering?' There are plenty of alternatives:

• Value of Model Engineer spending in the High Street over the last 100 years. This is badly flawed because the High Street is decline. The way we shop has changed.
• Model Engineering posts on the Internet over the last 20 years. This is badly flawed because the internet is a newbie, and because many Model Engineers don't use it.
• Man hours spent on the hobby over the last 100 years – no-one knows
• Club membership – the problem here is deciding if falling membership and the rising age of members is measuring Model Engineering or just the Club. Pubs are much less popular than they used to be, but that doesn't mean the Brits have given up alcohol.
• etc.

Neil made a good point about the maker movement. In that context 'Model Engineering' is flourishing. My view is that skills described so well by Sparey, Westbury and others were the starting point, not the be all and end all. If someone chooses to use CAD, CNC, 3D printing to make widgets rather than LBSC locos that's building on sound ME foundations, not heresy.

Dave

Although this is probably the answer to the question, it is also probably not the answer they were seeking.

They want to know if model engineering is in decline?

They wany to know why everybody is not like them?

Of course model engineering is in decline. You are getting older & one day soon you will pass to the other side.

Then, there will be nobody left to make things like you did.

[Ron LadenParticipant @ronladen17547]

Posted by Mick Charity on 19/08/2018 16:08:58:

Posted by Ron Laden on 19/08/2018 14:36:09:

Can we ask what you were doing when you were 22, 21, 18, 13 & 9 ?

Were you chasing wimmin in nightclubs after your team won the football or were you stood by your grandad as he spanked a flange on his anvil?

I was doing exactly the same, I was trying to point out that they are typical youngsters and to most youngsters model engineering is probably as interesting as watching paint dry.

[Barnaby WildeParticipant @barnabywilde70941]

Posted by Ron Laden on 19/08/2018 16:19:12:

Posted by Mick Charity on 19/08/2018 16:08:58:

Posted by Ron Laden on 19/08/2018 14:36:09:

Can we ask what you were doing when you were 22, 21, 18, 13 & 9 ?

Were you chasing wimmin in nightclubs after your team won the football or were you stood by your grandad as he spanked a flange on his anvil?

I was doing exactly the same, I was trying to point out that they are typical youngsters and to most youngsters model engineering is probably as interesting as watching paint dry.

I agree.

I wanted my kids to do what other kids of their age did, NOT what I do at my age & NOT what I did at their age.

Times change & what kids do changes with it.

I wouldn't ever dream of telling my kids how to raise my grandkids. That's just admitting that you got the raising of kids wrong.

[Jeff BatesParticipant @jeffbates19503]

The Midland Model Engineering show this year confirms that model engineering shows have had their glory days

when the likes of Warco, chronos, rotagrip etc stop attending the writing is on the wall

the fees keep rising and you have to sell an awful lot of stock just to break even

Warco say that it would cost them around 25k to attend a show like Warwick. Fuel hotels staff wages etc

Footfall is well down in previous years and the average age of the attendees is about 68, most of which only spend a few quid

there are very few teenage or lads in their 20's 30's or 40's to replace the older generation

ten years and the shows will become a thing of the past.

what a shame i will certainly miss them

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Jeff Bates on 19/10/2019 01:30:16:

Footfall is well down in previous years and the average age of the attendees is about 68, most of which only spend a few quid

there are very few teenage or lads in their 20's 30's or 40's to replace the older generation

I assume you went Thursday or Friday when most people in their 20s, 30s and 40 will be working and teens & kids at school

[Old SchoolParticipant @oldschool]

I can remember the heyday of model engineering shows, being dragged round by my father looking at the clocks and him muttering to himself built by an engineer. We did persuade him to look at the exciting stuff the model aircraft and the model boats. I have never really been a fan of steam loco,s they are nice a huge amount of skill in building one.

To me one of the more interesting and very nicely made exhibits fp was the Gatling gun not to everyone taste but a demonstration of the gunsmiths skill.

I have no idea what the youngsters of today want to see my son has a model engineering workshop he produces parts for his tethered cars and his full size drag racing mini.

The shows are certainly in decline but it's not just the ME shows some are killed by the admission price, but not the MEX.

Just for the record I do have one complete 3 1/2 loco but only really as a dust collector although does have its all the required paper work run. And I rescued a gauge 1 Girton that I am completing made by an Scosman in Switzerland and rescued from going into a Swiss dustbin.

They have an absolutely fabulous gauge one in Witterswill I Switzerland and the guys there say it's in decline, the tether car track next door the reason for me being there is holding its own having a good mixture of ages.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

I had an interesting chat on the CNC4you stand which I don’t remember having been at a show before. In recent years there have been a few new entrants into the ME market and the shows provide a good chance to demonstrate their wares and knowledge. Younger entrants to ME are very likely to be very savvy with internet shopping and able to find much info and advice online. When Ketan withdrew Arceurrotrade from the show circuit he was brave enough to make his case on this forum and I think most people have great respect for his reasoning. The same reasons are likely to apply to most of the traders and hence we are seeing them fall away from shows and use the internet and their own showroom facilities to market their products. It’s funny how my experience of visiting on Thursday is different from some other posters, I joined the prepaid ticket queue at 9:37 and was through the doors at 10:02, I made a beeline for the balcony restaurant and there was no queue for my full English and coffee. Moving round the show was busy but not too bad, sometimes you have to wait for a gap to emerge to get to the front on some stalls but not a problem, after I came in from the outside exhibits and jet engine demo there was a strong haze of bacon smoke and a longish queue at the catering counter, the haze was unusual and I wonder if cooked food downstairs is new as I thought is was just a coffee cake and sandwich point in the past. We have already seen the demise of the Model engineer show so maybe the writing is on the wall for the others? There are still quite a lot of shows and I suspect the club run shows which strongly feature models and are run by a club with willing members can keep going as long as the members are prepared to make a considerable effort. I imagine the commercial shows will run until they start making a loss and I am sure they are thinking what to do to keep things going. Maybe shows will evolve and some of the criticism is that they are not like they used to be but if it was your first visit would you be happy with the experience. Times they are a changin’.

Mike

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

The seems to be no decline in the standard of work produced, but I fear that not every club nurtures youngsters as some clubs do.

Although not a member (140 miles away ) Hereford do a good job. They mentor youngsters, even having a workshop specifically for them.

All M E Clubs need to publicise themselves, to show what can be made by a Model Engineer, and then to follow up by making ALL potential members welcome, and helping / advising in any way that they can.

If this does not happen, Model Engineering will decline as older members die off, and no youngsters come in to continue the hobby.

This will be bad news for Society, as practical skills, and understanding declines. Already, I have heard young parents ask "How does that fire make the locomotive go?", leading to an explanation of how a steam locomotive works. Others, apparently have difficulty screwing a nut onto a bolt; which augers badly for the future of the human race! In 1977, in America, I was told that a Master Plumber could name his own price. We do not want to go along that road!, where practical skills and understanding are rare.

Howard

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

Looking at my local club – yes it is slowly dying, I think. Certainly member numbers are down, and active model builders has decreased,

However, if I drive 2 hours to another club (Canada – distances like this is close) – the Montreal Live Steamers – is absolutely thriving.

Some of the members are about my parents' age, but the majority that I see out there are young – no grey hair – and ACTIVE. Lots of construction, facility building, track work, locomotive building (from 3-1/2 to 7-1/4). It's incredible to see what they do.

How do they do it? In my opinion,They provide an inclusive atmosphere, and go out of their way to be personable and approachable. No issues with what you are building or buying, any scale, help and guidance is there.

I'm not sure how to bring that attitude to my local club; I've tried, but I think a combination of lack of time, other hobbies, working full time, and (most important) a really outgoing, engaging personality is required. 😐

[R Johns 1Participant @rjohns1]

Interesting posts here. I am planing on taking my 6 year old to Alexandra Palace in January for the model exhibition. He is well into airfix and builds with meccano. We have done some woodwork together but he now wants to do engineering. I am always in the shed making steam engines etc.

He has used under supervision my small unimat lathe to make a couple of components for his models but the thing really stopping progress is his age and wanting something complete after a short session. I am currently toying with the idea of a mamod kit for him to get really started although these do not actually involve making anything.

Elmo

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember19781]

[This posting has been removed]

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

It’s just too expensive !! My first steam model was a turbine. WOW !!

A Tate and Lyles syrup tin with a bike tyre valve as the nozzle. Turbine cut from tin plate etc. Safety valve was the lid blowing off. But of course, all that is too dangerous now. Just look at any pre war

model magazine – lots of stuff for « model engineers » but tooo dangerous ??? 

Edited By Speedy Builder5 on 19/10/2019 14:38:32

[steamdaveParticipant @steamdave]

From what I saw when visiting the US shows, there was a very good attendance.

One major difference is that there are very few club stands, most exhibitors had their own stand and the great advantage is that any visitor with a question could ask the builder directly, unlike a club stand where the steward probably knows nothing about most of the models on display. There is much more emphasis over there on internal combustion engines and hot air engines rather than steam. There was also an auction sale on site with tools, models, materials an even antique machinery.

When I visited GEARS over in Portland OR, the ladies of the exhibitors were not left out on a limb looking disinterestedly at the engines while hubby was rapt: they had their own display (in the same building) of their crafts, mostly quilting and needlework sort of things. It was very noticeable how many of the men went and viewed them.

Dave
The Emerald Isle

[Author]

Posts