injector problems still

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Hi on 5" site face book several saying you should never clean a boiler out with citric acid and that you should only use white viniger as the citric acid makes the boiler produce the green slime inside the boiler.

can any of you guys tell me if this is correct please.

i had already filled with water and citric acid poured it into a bucket tiny few bits but hardly anything in bucket.

now put white viniger in to soak hope it stops the green after this.

Ron

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

I am sending Ron one of my working spare injectors again, and Ron will send me his commercial injector that failed at the weekend.

There is nothing wrong with Ron's loco's pipework etc as when I sent him one of my working spare injectors previously it worked perfectly on his loco.

When I examine Ron's commercial injector I will provide a full report on what is found.

Ron, I dont think you needed to take off the boiler and clean it out in advance of a detailed inspection of the injector.

I have had over 30 years happy steaming of miniature locos without resort to axle or handpumps, relying just on the injectors fitted.

I think Ron's re-connecting of the axle pump is a good thing in his case. Unfortunately one of my working spare injectors that Ron found so successful, compared to the commercial gadgets he had bought, resulted in a decision to disconnect the axlepump by Ron.

In a week or so's time we will know whether the commercial injector is at fault, or 'foreign bodies' inside, or perhaps something else.

Cheers,

Julian

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

on the 5" siteThank you Julian yes the one I borrowed of you last time whilst you do my other worked fine.

I wish I had kept it till you did my other one as at least I could have been running.

I have boiler of I left for an hour in citric acid them poured into clean bucket very tiny amount bits in hard to even see.

Their was a lot green inside that's now gone but they said citric acid causes a reaction that makes it grow green inside.

They say I must use white viniger to stop it what do you think.

Tomorrow will connect the axle pump hope it gives me another option if injector fails again.

Thank you Julian

Ron

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

Hi Ron,

Citric acid grows something if left untreated. It is best flushed out then treated with bleach if on a boiler, then washed out considerably.

I use citric acid on injectors send to me that require cleaning. I dont use vinegar.

I think the particular problem with commercial injectors currently is that apart from the Len Steel (Chiverton) injectors marketed by Paul Pavier, most current commercial products on sale are far inferior to what was available 20-30 years ago.

I have no connection with Paul Pavier and Len Steel, and usual disclaimer.

I did recommend to Ron that he ordered his injectors from Paul Pavier of Len Steel 'make' (there is quite a long waiting list, and a higher price) but Ron opted instead for other makes.

Cheers,

Julian

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Hi Julian I did order from him but 5 months and was still waiting so bought one from Blackgates.

I have already washed in Citric Acid then I have left to soak in white Viniger.

Got to still pipe up axle pump and refit boiler will recipe making sure no air leaks.

Will clean injector before sending to Julian.

Hope finally to find the problem.

Thanks Julian.

Hope after this injector and the one your making a new cone for that one will work I can enjoy running this summer

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Well an update on my injector problems i had removed the boiler and cleaned with the citric acid just a very little bit of much came out.

I then put white viniger in left 24 hours so much rubbish came out all the green inside has gone vineger looked like muddy water.

I looked in one injector found rubbish inside so cleand and gave a good blow out with air gun now spotless clean hope it will work.

I checked the other injector and found a cone missing so tottaly my fault dont know how as trying very hard but eyesigh at nearly 70 not so good.

I now have boiler back on most of pipe work connected will do the rest tomorrow i hope need the re do tender pipe work as i blanked of for axle pump as i was trying to use two tenders.

I will steam up once back together and blow down a couple times then check also the axle pump is working ok as going to run on blocks hopefully i can run next wed and see how it is then.

Fingers crossed that we are a little nearer summer soon here hope it can run with not too many problems now.

Ron

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

Hi Ron,

Before next Wednesday we could swap injectors! I will send you one of mine as a spare anyway.

Cheers,

Julian

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Posted by julian atkins on 16/02/2017 23:55:36:

Hi Ron,

Before next Wednesday we could swap injectors! I will send you one of mine as a spare anyway.

Cheers,

Julian

Thank you Julian maybe one of the cones from the other one of mine you have will fit this one and will be able to make one injector ready to work.

Ron

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Posted by Ron Hancock on 13/02/2017 17:41:48:

ronPosted by Mark P. on 13/02/2017 17:14:03:
Ron, try boiling them for half an hour in vinegar, it has worked well for me in the past. Don't put the used vinegar on your chips though!
Mark P.

Thanks for the Tip but they look spotless inside after citric acid

Hi Mark well i used the white viniger in boiler so much muck came out very surprised as i had used citric acid before. I have even put it in tender over night trying to make sure thats as clean.

Also did the injector and gave it a good blow our hope next wed when i try to run will get afew laps in especially now i have fitted the axle pump praying that works big mistake not trying first but the pump was already fitted just needed piping up.

Well hopefully injector will work bought a new one from Reeves waiting for delivery just got the Tender pipe work to change as i had blanked of as was using two injectors but now using one plus axle pump and Hand pump.

Thank you again for advice had a lot say i should not use Vineger but it was already in and results speak for themselfs no green just clean boiler so Thank you #Ron

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Posted by Ron Hancock on 13/02/2017 17:41:48:

ronPosted by Mark P. on 13/02/2017 17:14:03:
Ron, try boiling them for half an hour in vinegar, it has worked well for me in the past. Don't put the used vinegar on your chips though!
Mark P.

Thanks for the Tip but they look spotless inside after citric acid

Hi Mark well i used the white viniger in boiler so much muck came out very surprised as i had used citric acid before. I have even put it in tender over night trying to make sure thats as clean.

Also did the injector and gave it a good blow our hope next wed when i try to run will get afew laps in especially now i have fitted the axle pump praying that works big mistake not trying first but the pump was already fitted just needed piping up.

Well hopefully injector will work bought a new one from Reeves waiting for delivery just got the Tender pipe work to change as i had blanked of as was using two injectors but now using one plus axle pump and Hand pump.

Thank you again for advice had a lot say i should not use Vineger but it was already in and results speak for themselfs no green just clean boiler so Thank you #Ron

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Well good day today been in workshop all day made new fitting for under dome finished all the pipework everything back together but my injector the nuts not long enough and thread damaged my stupid fault so ordered a new injector from Reeves 2000 hoping to get it tomorrow.

?Hoping to get back in workshop tomorrow and sort tender out as blanked piping of as was not using axle pump.

the axle pump is piped back in as i had blanked it off but should have removed it and tested it why do i only think of it afterwards.

damaged the good injector from reeves 2000 the nut split so tried normal pipe nut but was only on a couple threads and you guesed it damages thread need to make new nut and extend so i can use in emergancy.

in the mean time oredered a new injector from reeves 2000 so i can Run wed at the club desperate to get a few laps in.

just hope i get tender done tomorrow so its ready to run again.

Ron

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Any Copper salt (Copper + Acid) will be blue or green. Citric acid and Vinegar (weak Acetic acid) are used for cleaning / pickling, since they don't dissolve metal as fast as the stronger acids such as Sulphuric, Hydrochloric, and Nitric.

Whatever you use, thorough washing is essential. Otherwise the risk is that the acid will loosen scale which will later find its way into somewhere it should not be. Then you will be worse off than when you started! (This is Newton's fourth law, the law of the eternal cussedness of things, variously attributed to Murphy, or to Sod, in action)

Howard

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Well today i tried to steam her up to try it but found it leaking steam can't remember what the valve is called very simler to a clack valve but lets air in fitted in smoke box. Removed it and put to soak in citric acid over night as lot of carbon in it. Lets hope tomorrow brings better luck still hoping to run her Wed at our club but want to run on blocks he before don't like the disapointment when i have trouble.will have to refit front Bogie wheels had to remove so could find the problem. Tomorrow should get the Injector from Julian Atkins. I so looking forward to trying hope fully get a good run wed but will steam tomorrow again to see.

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

Hi Ron,

I think the faulty valve is the snifting valve from your description. Generally they dont ever cause a problem. I have had not had a snifting valve cause any problems on various locos in over 30 years.

Unfortunately I was called into work earlier than my planned shift so didnt have an opportunity to get to the Post Office.

Cheers,

Julian

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Hi julian yes it is the snifter Valve first time i have had a problem with it i removed it it was full of crud probably becouse its mounted underneath the smoke box so picking up from underneath.

After soaking it citric acid it looks like new blowing through it seems fine again will refit it tomorrow and keep fingers crossed.

I am hoping the Injector will come from reeves tomorrow don't have much faith in this one from Blackgates.

Did you have any luck with my other Injector it must be so hard to turn a tiny cone like that could never do it on my Lathe.

Still could not beleive how loose it was i should have just returned it they should have sorted it out not right asking you to do such a dificult Job.

I am hoping tomorrow i can get steam up and try axle pump to see it it works fingers crossed it has to be getting near now.

Ron

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

Working spare posted to Ron Tuesday morning first class post.

Cheers,

Julian

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Thank you Julian it came this afternoon going to fit it to run next Wed.

Wish i had not put my back out yesterday can't wait to try it out.

Ron

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Well thanks to Julian Atkins got a working injector each and every time it picks up cleanly so why don't my other new injectors work i have one from reeves 2000 one from Blackgates and one from leeds show my friend bought for me.

Not one works properly but fitted this and it works perfect such a releif.

Looking forward to a good run soon.

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

For those of you who have followed the long saga with Ron's 5"g LMS 'Black Five' on here I can only commiserate with him that he has been very very unlucky with commercial products he has bought from some of our commercial suppliers in the UK.

If these commercial concerns read these posts then I hope they take note.

I dont know where they buy their stuff from these days.

Ron bought a batch of check valves from a very well known commercial supplier to the ME market. On test in my workshop none of them seated, and they were very poorly made and designed.

One of Ron's commercially bought injectors was full of swarf obstructing the cones from when the injector was made – nothing to do with Ron.

I have recently repaired for a friend 2 Gordon Chiverton injectors of small 12 oz per min size. On one, the delivery cone abutted the combining cone with no gap, and on the other there was a blob of silver solder on the check valve seat preventing the injector check valve ball from seating at all. Both were sold by Polly Eng. Neither would work as made.

A new delivery cone was made for one, and a new seat made for the other for the injector internal check valve.

The above injectors were bought by a highly experienced model engineer from Polly, who also has considerable fullsize experience of driving locos.

So it is not just Ron who has had these problems.

I make all my own fiddly bits so am somewhat detached from what goes on in the commercial suppliers these days, but the above examples really ought to show that our commercial suppliers need to reconsider what they are buying and from whom.

The only commercial injectors I will recommend are those made by Len Steel for Paviersteam. I have no connection at all with Len or Paul Pavier, and usual disclaimer.

Cheers,

Julian

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Quite a saga…

Thanks for sharing chaps

[SteamgeekParticipant @steamgeek]

Having purchased injectors from all parties mentioned, I have to put my hand up and say they have all worked without complaint and that has been the experience of a lot of my friends in the hobby.

My personal view is that injectors are often treated as a fit and forget item ( and clack valves for that matter ). I clean my injectors after every run, normally with compressed air and then a quick dip in white vinegar every 6 weeks or so during the peak of the running season to clean up any scale on the cones.

Poor installation of injectors is often the root cause of peoples woes, poor pipework, air leaks on the water feed , no filters on the water feed and if there are filters , when were they last cleaned out?

When you look at the price we pay for these fittings and compare that to the amount of effort, skill and tooling required to produce a similar item in your workshop it's not a bad deal , will they have quality issues from time to time? of course they will and when they do encounter problems we ask them to deal with them promptly.

I am not associated with any of the suppliers mentioned, I am a club boiler inspector so do see more than my fair share of problems with injectors.

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Thank you Julian so much stress as i am a novice but if the Injectors had worked then why does the one from Julian work so well and not just once but every time. I has the same pipe work so if it did not work then i fitted julians then why does it work so well now. Surley as they cost so much that each should be tested after manifacture. I was ready to give up tottaly with Model engineering as so many times it failed. Yes as i bought from diffrent suppliers each time hoping to solve the problem was probably very unlucky. But they are not two six pence from woolworths and would at least expect them to work. Its easy to blame my Loco but have seen this problem so often but as a novice could not understand why i get the feeling they come from China sold very cheaply to supliers then sold at high profit where we become the frustrated loosers.

Ron

[Harry WilkesParticipant @harrywilkes58467]

Ron

Glad to hear​ Julian's injector worked at least you now know your pipework and water supply is OK as I see it now I suggest your send them back to the supplier telling them they do not work, send them as I suggested to Terry Baxter ask him to check them out then send them back with his finding or just ask him to fix them ! don't see any point in you sourcing another and keeping to naff ones on the shelf good luck which ever way you decide to go

H

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Hi yes I would but had them for some time always thinking it was me. Julian has one he is sorting for me I have to send him another he will sort for me.

I know once he has worked on them they will work properly I really don't want to go through the last few months been a nightmare.

I trust Julian and when he has time they will work properly.

Ron

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

When I bought the injectors for my locos (made by Bob Brampson) they came with a test certificate showing working range and delivery. I know it would cost extra to do this, but if you were set up to do a batch I don't think it would cost a great deal. Spending an extra few quid for something that has been tested is better than risking a lot of quids for scrap. Similarly with clacks and valves, I've had the same problems with leaking clacks and finished up making my own.

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