identifying brass from bronze

[michael burton 1Participant @michaelburton1]

Hi how can you tell the difference between brass and bronze on a machined part as there both a similar colour

Thanks mike

[michael burton 1Participant @michaelburton1]

[Robert DoddsParticipant @robertdodds43397]

Mike,

There are lots of proviso's but as machined brass is likely to compare to the colour of a battery hen's egg yolk, a paleish yellow. Depends on which bronze you look at but phoshor bronze would be more like a duck egg yolk, a slight reddish tinge to it whilst manganese bronze would tend to look more silvery. Give them a week or two in the air and they all would start to change colour through forming an oxidation layer.
If you are actually there at the machining stage each material displays different cutting characteristics
Brass bars cut freely and sometimes have been known to sing to you. Phosphor bronze is tougher but still cuts very cleanly as you would expect from a bearing material. Manganese bronze and several other alloys of bronze are quite tough to machine and can work harden whilst cutting.
Bob D

[steve de24Participant @stevede2433577]

I've noticed that at model shows there seems to be 2 main types material sold as 'bronze'. The first is very copper coloured and the second a pale brass colour. This confused newbie would like be grateful if someone can explain what they are likely to be and what uses they are best suited for. Thanks in advance, Steve

[jacques maurelParticipant @jacquesmaurel42310]

I think the best way is to measure the density: weight the piece, put it in a graduated bowl half filled with water to know the volume, divide the weight by the volume, compare the result with the one for a brass sample. Brass density is lower than bronze one as brass is usually copper with about 40% zinc while bronze is copper with about 10% tin, zinc and tin having almost the same density.
J Maurel

[JAParticipant @ja]

There have been a number of threads on this subject already.

Set up a simple one cell battery as follows: The part you want to identify, blotting paper soaked in a salt (table salt) solution, a piece of brass. Connect a voltmeter between the part and the brass and note the voltage. Repeat with a piece of bronze instead of brass and note voltage. A very small voltage or none means that the part is the same as the other electrode of the cell.

JA

[steve de24Participant @stevede2433577]

John, Thanks for the info; for my needs all I have to remember is PB1 and Colphos. Steve

[Stephen FullerParticipant @stephenfuller]

Posted by Bogstandard2 on 14/01/2015 08:01:22:

There are more different bronzes and brasses than you can shake a stick at, and really, it has to be left to the supplier to be honest with you and tell you what it really is.

The general purpose bronze would be PB1, which contains some lead to make it easier to machine, or another is Colphos, slightly more expensive, but is the one I use if I have a lot of bronze parts to make, it machines a dream.

Both of these are good enough for making bearings or steam components from, and in my opinion, if you can, stick with those two, you can't go far wrong.

Normal bronze has a reddish tinge, also, if the outside of the bar is untouched, the bronze usually has a faint dark spiral running along it's length, this is part of the manufacturing process.

I use another bronze called aluminium bronze, and even though it makes superb bearings and has great wearing properties, keep away from it if you want to maintain you sanity. It can usually be detected by being lighter in weight, light in colour (sometimes almost yellowy silver) and usually is slightly magnetic. Unless you machine it correctly, you will just end up with a hard lump of metal that resists almost all machining techniques. That is it's beauty, and downfall.

John

Any tips you may have for machining aluminium bronze would be most useful

Steve

[andrew winksParticipant @andrewwinks64215]

Hi, machining it will give you a good idea. Phosphor bronze, as sold for plain bearing bushes etc, comes off the tool bit in long strings. Brass and gunmetal produces fine chips. Gunmetal stock bar seems to be cast so it has the sand cast look, brass is extruded so smooth, clean finish. I notice gunmetal machines the easiest and is very soft. I often post questions on how to ID it as well as I have a shed corner full of boxes of offcuts of bar and sheet. You do get to tell what's what after a while, clean off some known samples with ajax as a reference and compare. Aluminium bronze castings for dome covers are being produced but the finished polished look is a bit too silvery for my personal preference.

[Swarf, Mostly!Participant @swarfmostly]

Steve and John,

The Copper Development Association (used to ?? ) publish a very comprehensive book describing aluminium bronze(s) properies, casting and machining.

Last time I mentioned it on a forum, another poster told us that that book, with many other CDA publications, is now available on-line.

Best regards,

Swarf, Mostly!

[norm nortonParticipant @normnorton75434]

A year ago, I spent some time researching bronze composition when I found there was little written about the subject. At the risk of criticism for errors I offer the table below. I gathered the information by searching the web for many worldwide manufacturers/suppliers, and came up with this. Please note that some suppliers may vary the composition by several percentage points, and there is potential for the use of added nickel in some bronzes.

BRONZE %	Cu	Sn	Pb	Zn	P
Admiralty	88	10		2
Gun Metal LG2	85	5	5	5		Plus 1-2% Ni?
PB1	87.8	11	0.2		1
PB102	94.8	5			0.2
Colphos 90	87.8	5	4	3	0.2
SAE 660	83	7	7	3		trace P and 1% Ni?

The true phosphor bronzes are PB1 and PB102; although Colphos 90 contains phosphorous the addition of lead and zinc makes it quite different from PB102. People call bearing bronzes phosphor bronze, which I think is wrong.

For beginners in bronze I would stress the use of PB102 for anything attached to a steam boiler. There is a thought that the zinc in other bronzes could be leached out (as with brass) leading to a weakness, but I have not read of any proof of this. It was this issue that caused me to look at the compositions when I realised that some of our suppliers were not fully clued up on the subject.

Having said the above about suitability with steam, I presume that bronze castings are a simple gun metal and its use in cylinder castings works without problems. Colphos 90 and SAE 660 are regarded as bearing bronzes and you can see that their composition is similar. I understand that the aluminium bronzes are potentially hard, have come about from aerospace technology and are probably best avoided by us.

LG2, PB102, SAE660 and Colphos 90 are commonly available. PB102 machines ok and silver solders nicely, but it can be fussy about drilling and is difficult to ream. Colphos 90 and SAE 660 will also silver solder well and are that bit easier (softer) when machining.

Norm.

[john jennings 1Participant @johnjennings1]

I first met aluminium bronze in the form of a tube of rather pretty swarf in practical examination 65 years ago.

The 7 hours task (this was day one only!) was to find out what was in the alloy aluminium, copper, was that it ?? Then to devise methods for determining how much of each. I can't remember the answers but the donuts and mugs of tea distributed by the laboratory staff are still the highlights of a wearying day!

john

We didn't find any of the ALUMINUM that the spell check # is so keen on

# doesn't like spellcheck either!

[Jens Eirik Skogstad 1Participant @jenseirikskogstad1]

My father in law who worked as metallurgist in 13 year in Dnepr motorcycle factory in Kyiv. He told the bronze bearings in the motorcycle was made of 200 gram copper and 15 gram tin. First melt the copper then soak the bit of tin into the molten copper to prevent the tin is evaporated away from copper and stirr well before poring.

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