Home workshop fatal tragedy

[Graham TitmanParticipant @grahamtitman81812]

Michael Gilligan said

P.S. … and once-upon-a-time we were also told that 'Atomic' energy would give us "Electricity too cheap to meter".

And North Sea gas would be free

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 22/04/2018 11:20:12:

Posted by Gary Wooding on 22/04/2018 11:10:06:

Hardly a recent development. I've been using an Aqua-Flame unit for soldering precious metals for well over 15 years. It creates oxygen and hydrogen by the electrolysis of water. …

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Perhaps there is some subtlety in Bullfinch's use of "development"

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Back from the grocery shopping … This appears to be the subtlety: **LINK**

https://www.safeflame-uk.com/

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 22/04/2018 11:20:12:

Posted by Gary Wooding on 22/04/2018 11:10:06:

Hardly a recent development. I've been using an Aqua-Flame unit …

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Thanks for that, Gary … I wasn't aware of Aqua-Flame

I don't think anyone mentioned it when I was asking about micro-burners.

**LINK**

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My apologies to Tim Stevens, who did mention the Aqua-Flame style of generator [albeit not by name].

MichaelG.

[MikeParticipant @mike89748]

Going back to water injection in engines, I can remember in the 1950s there was one diesel tractor which had water injection. In the 1960s, Boeing 707s with Pratt & Whitney engines used water injection to boost thrust on take-off. I remember being told by one so-called "expert" that it was abandoned because it shortened engine life. I can remember having a Vauxhall which always ran better on foggy days, in just the situation when the extra performance was impossible to use..

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

I think the water injection for cars was called, 'Drox'. I also remember waxy cubes you put in the petrol tank called, 'Nol' they were supposed to lube the carburetter. I used them in my M/C after fitting a new carb.

Regarding car engines running better on muggy or foggy days, my new Passat does this and is quite noticeable in acceleration.

[Gordon WParticipant @gordonw]

Some of you old rockers will remember– "water was coming in under the hood, knew it was doing my motor good " Mabeline.

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

Re: Water Injection, the water, steam or water methanol cools the charge of fuel entering the combustion chamber which means that it becomes denser and therefore more fuel available to burn = more power or smoother running. When I was in the Air Force I spent 8 years working on Brittania aircraft, the Whispering Giant, these aircraft had a large tank of water methanol mixture which was used when extra boost from the turboprops was required ie when taking off from hot and high airfields where the air was less dense.

Dave W

[Martin DowingParticipant @martindowing58466]

Posted by vintagengineer on 21/04/2018 13:13:36:

Propane is a welling gas so should not be stored below ground level!

Hydrogen is very easy to produce, just pass an electric current through water!

Edited By vintagengineer on 21/04/2018 13:14:48

It is even easier to produce hydrogen by dropping a piece of aluminium to caustic soda solution. This way you can produce it up to any reasonable pressure, eg 200at if done under proper enclosure, eg in empty gas cylinder. Make sure you know what you are doing while attempting that because you may end up like this unlucky chap.

Btw, neighbours of the guy who were talking about something like "nuclear explosion" obviously didn't see one.

Martin

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

I have a 1919 Lister M stationary engine which has water injection to stop pre ignition.

Martin P

[Martin DowingParticipant @martindowing58466]

Posted by Muzzer on 21/04/2018 23:51:37:

There's nothing magical about hydrogen. If it's not mixed with air / oxygen, it simply burns like any other fuel, albeit no carbon, so no soot. On the other hand, almost any combustible material will explode if correctly divided and mixed with oxygen eg coal dust, sawdust, flour, petrol, LPG…hydrogen etc etc.

Using hydrogen as a coolant is "2000 times better than air" presumably because it changes state from liquid to gas ("phase change", "heat of evaporation" etc) in the process. Rather like water or ammonia or any number of liquids / refrigerants.

Murray

No.

Hydrogen is better heat conductor because it has smaller molecule and much higher velocity of molecules than air components like oxygen or nitrogen do under the same p/T conditions.

For the same reason argon and even more so heavier noble gases are good heat insulators – slower mooving molecules.

Martin

[Martin DowingParticipant @martindowing58466]

Regarding Hydrogen Economy.

From my life long experience as a research chemist and in depth understanding of the subject – it has no future and it is going to be more expensive than alternatives, including batteries.

Small amounts of hydrogen might be produced during chemical processing including waste processing and used locally small scale but using electrolysis to produce hydrogen for ICE on a large scale is just stupid.

Cheaper is to charge battery with available electricity and adequate tech is already there.

Regarding HOH "wonder gas" – just fraud to milk cash of stupid.

Hydrogen is great for manufacturing chemicals like ammonia but thats about all. It is a very good fuel but only for Apollo missions or a shuttle.

Numerous projects to develop it as a general fuel are around only because government (or taxpayer) money are freely available to waste.

Martin

Edited By Martin Dowing on 22/04/2018 18:43:02

[David Clarke 21Participant @davidclarke21]

Back to the original posting,

As Hydrogen is clearly not the useful fuel-gas that it might seem, maybe the intention was to create Oxygen to boost the power of a conventional (propane, etc.) torch?

Electrolyse water, collect and use the Oxygen, the Hydrogen (lighter than air) will just float away and …

[Martin DowingParticipant @martindowing58466]

Posted by David Clarke 21 on 22/04/2018 19:16:12:

Back to the original posting,

As Hydrogen is clearly not the useful fuel-gas that it might seem, maybe the intention was to create Oxygen to boost the power of a conventional (propane, etc.) torch?

Electrolyse water, collect and use the Oxygen, the Hydrogen (lighter than air) will just float away and …

From practical point of view it is rather difficult to produce sufficient amount of hydrogen to cause a reasonable explosion without deliberately collecting it somehow.

Approximately 2 x 96500 C (say 200000 C) of electricity would be fequired to produce 1 mole (22.4 L) of hydrogen (H2) gas at 1at/RT.

To blow up a shed in a spectacular way as reported by neighbours at least 100L of hydrogen would be needed and this would need to be generated fast enough to prevent dispersion.

To get there you would need about 1-2 hours of work of 200A power supply, depending of exact setup and well sealed shed to prevent hydrogen loss to outside.

In well aerated shed you would probably look for 1000 A power supply – unlikely at amateur disposal.

Conclusion: Hydrogen was deliberately collected and something went wrong. Possibly it was not separated good enough from oxygen produced on anode… and a burner was tried or cigarette lighted on etc.

Martin

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by David Clarke 21 on 22/04/2018 19:16:12:

Back to the original posting,

As Hydrogen is clearly not the useful fuel-gas that it might seem, maybe the intention was to create Oxygen to boost the power of a conventional (propane, etc.) torch?

Electrolyse water, collect and use the Oxygen, the Hydrogen (lighter than air) will just float away and …

If that was what he wanted, an oxycon would have been rather safer, not so much more expensive, no gas storage required and available for about 250W energy expenditure. Available whenever required, too.

But tinkerers will be tinkerers, I suppose!

[vintagengineerParticipant @vintagengineer]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 22/04/2018 11:09:40:

On water and cars, in the old days it was well known that many cars ran better on damp, foggy days. You used to be able to get devices that gently introduced a small amount of water to the inlet manifold.

It isn't snake oil – read up on Focke Wolf water injection to see what it can do – 1,600hp up to 2,000hp. The normal system was methanol water (to stop freezing) but pure water could be used.

The methanol was also added to aid evaporation and stop detonation

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