help identifying lathe

[James TregaskisParticipant @jamestregaskis13908]

hi,

I need help in identifying a lathe that I have obtained. I think it is built by Myford in the early 50's, but I am not sure. The only identifying mark is the label marked "Osborn Ltd. Newcastle upon Tyne".
I have prepared a private web-page, please have a look at the photographs of it at the following link:
https://www.tregaskis.org/help-needed-to-identify-this-lathe/
In order to open the link you have to put in the password: myford

I am looking for a suitable 4 jaw and 3 jaw chucks also a suitable electric motor to drive it.

Many thanks,
James

[James TregaskisParticipant @jamestregaskis13908]

new aquisition

[Lee RogersParticipant @leerogers95060]

Not sure that's a Myford. Have a look on the lathesuk website there is a big section on ML 1/2/3/and 4. That brass pulley is astonishing. You need to add a countershaft to your shopping list.

[Peter BellParticipant @peterbell11509]

Cannot help with the lathe but Henry Osborn sold tools and general engineering supplies from Percy Street in Newcastle-upon-Tyne when I knew them in the 60's. Very helpful people when I wanted some pulleys. Seem to remember them moving there from elseware but when I knew them looks like they were a shadow of there former selves.

Peter

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

Looks like a (modified) RandA/ Winfield **LINK**

According to the RandA page these were sold my Myford in the 1930s. Winfield are always a good bet for identifying these small basic British lathes, they seem to have made a lot of models for badge engineering.

Cheers,

Rod

[James TregaskisParticipant @jamestregaskis13908]

Posted by Lee Rogers on 20/06/2021 17:59:42:

Not sure that's a Myford. Have a look on the lathesuk website there is a big section on ML 1/2/3/and 4. That brass pulley is astonishing. You need to add a countershaft to your shopping list.

Lee thank you for that, I need to know more… countershaft, need to research…. all comments/links/examples please guys, I need help to get this machine back in action!

[James TregaskisParticipant @jamestregaskis13908]

Posted by Roderick Jenkins on 20/06/2021 19:18:25:

Looks like a (modified) RandA/ Winfield **LINK**

According to the RandA page these were sold my Myford in the 1930s. Winfield are always a good bet for identifying these small basic British lathes, they seem to have made a lot of models for badge engineering.

Cheers,

Rod

Dear Rod THANK YOU! Wow that's really good of you… I can dig deeper now. Still need some ideas/advice on powering it and sources to get backplate and chuck(s) -…… 3" yes?

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Hope its ok to put it up

The lump of brass that made the headstock pulleys would probably cost as much as the lathe on ebay nowadays

Edited By Ady1 on 21/06/2021 08:04:59

[James TregaskisParticipant @jamestregaskis13908]

Posted by Ady1 on 21/06/2021 08:03:25:

Hope its ok to put it up

The lump of brass that made the headstock pulleys would probably cost as much as the lathe on ebay nowadays

Edited By Ady1 on 21/06/2021 08:04:59

Yeah, its fine! I am possibly going to fit a sewing machine motor to run it… thoughts anyone? Maybe not enough grunt but with pulley ratio, it might be OK?

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Wattage? If it is the typical domestic machine, no way. Likely enough to turn the lathe but not to cut.

[James TregaskisParticipant @jamestregaskis13908]

Posted by not done it yet on 21/06/2021 22:06:47:

Wattage? If it is the typical domestic machine, no way. Likely enough to turn the lathe but not to cut.

OK, what spec motor should I aim for?

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

I wouldn’t suggest any specific motor. Your sewing machine motor may be adequate, particularly if an industrial machine. Depends, really, on the Wattage, as I enquired above.

[James TregaskisParticipant @jamestregaskis13908]

Posted by not done it yet on 22/06/2021 07:01:16:

I wouldn’t suggest any specific motor. Your sewing machine motor may be adequate, particularly if an industrial machine. Depends, really, on the Wattage, as I enquired above.

Yes, of course, thank you; I meant the specification, not any specific motor; i.e. power/wattage would suit?

 

 

Edited By James Tregaskis on 22/06/2021 07:12:20

Edited By James Tregaskis on 22/06/2021 07:30:22

Edited By James Tregaskis on 22/06/2021 07:30:48

Edited By James Tregaskis on 22/06/2021 07:32:43

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

If you're not hogging a lot of metal then a 0.25kw motor will run a well adjusted machine and cut fine swarf

Other things to consider are duty cycle, will the motor run non-stop for 30-mins plus without blowing up?

and RPM, your lathe will probably be about 500-700 max with solid bearings so a 4000RPM sewing motor will need to be restricted

[James TregaskisParticipant @jamestregaskis13908]

I have a pair of these motors, maybe I could use one of them. I have the O-drive controller and position sensor as well and a 24V PSU… maybe this would work?

https://odriverobotics.com/shop/odrive-custom-motor-d5065

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12vzz7XVEK6YNIOqH0jAz51F5VUpc-lJEs3mmkWP1H4Y/edit#gid=0

Edited By James Tregaskis on 22/06/2021 07:33:55

[EmgeeParticipant @emgee]

Hi James

If you have an industrial sewing machine motor of at least 250W output power it may be suitable for your lathe, the type I am thinking of were underslung from the machine and usually incorporated a manual brake at the NDE, some of these were 1/2HP and more.

My first lathe was a Portass which was similar in design to yours, when bought it was fitted with a 1/3HP motor but I changed it to a 1/2HP because of the duty rating of the smaller motor, probably better if you are buying a motor to go for a 1/2HP in the first place.

As said speed may also be something to consider, especially if you are not fitting a countershaft between motor and spindle. (a countershaft has pulleys to match the motor pulleys but the small pulley on the motor is belted to the large c/shaft pulley so giving a speed reduction, power to the lathe is taken from one of the other c/shaft pulleys to suit the spindle speed required)

You could of course go the VFD route using a dual voltage (220/400) 3 phase motor, IMO a .37kW 4 pole would be suitable.

The Vee belt showing looks very long, perhaps it was driven from an overhead shaft.

Emgee

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

If from the 50s, would be a ML7, and it isn't. The ML7 was launched in 1947.

Not a predecessor Myford such as the ML1,2,3 or 4. (The headstock and banjo are not like those, and the bed iooks to be too long. ).

The photos don't show the bed form, whether flat or dovetaill, which will also help in identification..

For chucks, you need to measure the diameter and pitch of the thread on the Mandrel, and the register for the chuck..

A British lathe of that vintage is likely to have a Whitworth form threads, and have Imperial dimension..

It is likely, therefore that you will need to make up adaptors to convert your thread/register to one that is easily available. The 1.25 x 12 tpi of Myford would seem to be the most likely, IF the sizes allow.

It may be worth sacrificing an inch or so of bed space to use such an adaptor.

Here, you are in the Catch 22 situation of needing a chuck to hold the material while you do the machining.

Sounds like you need to find your ,local Model Engineering Society and throw yourself on the mercy of someone to make the adaptor for you.

Where are you located?

Once you have an adaptor, you could leave in place so that subsequently Myford fitting chucks and faceplates, etc can be fitted.

It would be worth spending some time checking your changewheels, to see what you have.

Hopefully, a complete set, probably incrementing from something like 20T in 5T steps up to 65, 70 or even 80T

You can calculate the DP of the gears by measuring OD and counting the teeth. It is possible that the Pressure Angle will be 14.5 on a machine of that age, rather than the 20 degrees favoured more recently.

That would allow you to set up for power feeds or screwcutting, as and when you feel the need and have the confidence.

Howard.

[James TregaskisParticipant @jamestregaskis13908]

Hi Howard, thanks for a very helpful reply… and I’m not at home so I can’t get hold of my callipers but it is 12 TPI 1 inch diameter so it’s probably Whitworth. Everything looks pretty straight and I have a good set of cogs I’ll go through them in due course. I’m already getting help from a kind person on this site I don’t want to ask too much of him. Hopefully I will get some kind soul to make me an adapter. It looks quite well cared for and I am now figuring Out how to best power it. I have an O-Drive board and skateboard motor; the controller which is pretty tough and is actually programmable to run the lathe. The kind of person who is helping me already has sourced me a chuck which will need an adapter.

It is so nice here on this forum because everyone is helping newbies like me, please keep the comments coming I am devouring them! Cheers,

james

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

About 1/3HP – 1/2HP should be fine. Next step is to sort out the speeds, on a lathe with those plain bearings, I'd be thinking 1000rpm tops. Maybe 400rpm and 100rpm from the slower pulleys unless a variable speed motor is used.

When the lathe was new, it was probably driven from a countershaft like this example from lathes.co.uk (recommended website!)

The motor would have been a fixed speed induction type, too fast for the lathe connected directly. So they're geared down by a belt to the countershaft (left of pic), which drives another three-way pulley, which your long belt would attach to, giving a choice of 3-speeds by moving the belt between pulley pairs.

Your O-Drive motor isn't one I'd naturally think of using, but hey – you have one with controller and PSU. Flat out the motor is too fast and powerful for the lathe, so be very careful to keep it throttled well back. Being overkill, I think it would work well driving the lathe directly, assuming the power supply is man enough. (The motor is rated 1800W, max 8500rpm, from 32V @ 65A with 'extremely good forced air cooling'.) I'd set the motor up for direct drive and try cutting metal, keep an eye on the speed with a cheap ebay rpm meter. Check motor temperature frequently at first: it's allowed to get warm, but not hot! If it shows any signs of overheating, cool it with an electric fan.

The spec says the motor delivers about 1/3 output with ordinary cooling, which should be 'good enough' for that size of lathe.

Dave

[James TregaskisParticipant @jamestregaskis13908]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 22/06/2021 18:55:35:

About 1/3HP – 1/2HP should be fine. Next step is to sort out the speeds, on a lathe with those plain bearings, I'd be thinking 1000rpm tops. Maybe 400rpm and 100rpm from the slower pulleys unless a variable speed motor is used.

When the lathe was new, it was probably driven from a countershaft like this example from lathes.co.uk (recommended website!)

The motor would have been a fixed speed induction type, too fast for the lathe connected directly. So they're geared down by a belt to the countershaft (left of pic), which drives another three-way pulley, which your long belt would attach to, giving a choice of 3-speeds by moving the belt between pulley pairs.

Your O-Drive motor isn't one I'd naturally think of using, but hey – you have one with controller and PSU. Flat out the motor is too fast and powerful for the lathe, so be very careful to keep it throttled well back. Being overkill, I think it would work well driving the lathe directly, assuming the power supply is man enough. (The motor is rated 1800W, max 8500rpm, from 32V @ 65A with 'extremely good forced air cooling'.) I'd set the motor up for direct drive and try cutting metal, keep an eye on the speed with a cheap ebay rpm meter. Check motor temperature frequently at first: it's allowed to get warm, but not hot! If it shows any signs of overheating, cool it with an electric fan.

The spec says the motor delivers about 1/3 output with ordinary cooling, which should be 'good enough' for that size of lathe.

Dave

,Hi Dave,

I will get a Nema 23 metal faceplate to hold the motor in place (not the 3D printed enclosure I have at present). I may need someone to machine me a brass V-belt pulley for the O-Drive shaft, I only have the ribbed kind at the moment. The O-Drive is really too 'good' for the lathe but I will opt for something more conventional longer term as I don't want to tie up the controller board for this application… The O-Drive and this brushless motor is very powerful and can do much more than this job, e.g. see this short video!

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Posted by James Tregaskis on 22/06/2021 15:29:20:

Hi Howard, thanks for a very helpful reply… and I’m not at home so I can’t get hold of my callipers but it is 12 TPI 1 inch diameter so it’s probably Whitworth. Everything looks pretty straight and I have a good set of cogs I’ll go through them in due course. I’m already getting help from a kind person on this site I don’t want to ask too much of him. Hopefully I will get some kind soul to make me an adapter. It looks quite well cared for and I am now figuring Out how to best power it. I have an O-Drive board and skateboard motor; the controller which is pretty tough and is actually programmable to run the lathe. The kind of person who is helping me already has sourced me a chuck which will need an adapter.

It is so nice here on this forum because everyone is helping newbies like me, please keep the comments coming I am devouring them! Cheers,

james

Hi James, if the nose is 1 inch x 12TPI then it is probably 1 inch UNF, (not NF, which is 14TPI) which is what my father's old RandA lathe is and you may have to get a blank backplate or two and machine them to fit any chucks you want to use. My father's old RandA lathe worked happily enough with a 1 / 4 HP induction motor via a counter shaft similar to this RandA page 2

A 1 / 3 HP induction motor or something equivalent should be about the largest you would need though I would think.

Regards Nick.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

If it may be a R and A then look at the Lathes UK website, for R and A lathes. There should be a lot of useful information there.

Howard

[James TregaskisParticipant @jamestregaskis13908]

Posted by Nicholas Farr on 23/06/2021 09:41:44:

Posted by James Tregaskis on 22/06/2021 15:29:20:

Hi Howard, thanks for a very helpful reply… and I’m not at home so I can’t get hold of my callipers but it is 12 TPI 1 inch diameter so it’s probably Whitworth. Everything looks pretty straight and I have a good set of cogs I’ll go through them in due course. I’m already getting help from a kind person on this site I don’t want to ask too much of him. Hopefully I will get some kind soul to make me an adapter. It looks quite well cared for and I am now figuring Out how to best power it. I have an O-Drive board and skateboard motor; the controller which is pretty tough and is actually programmable to run the lathe. The kind of person who is helping me already has sourced me a chuck which will need an adapter.

It is so nice here on this forum because everyone is helping newbies like me, please keep the comments coming I am devouring them! Cheers,

james

Hi James, if the nose is 1 inch x 12TPI then it is probably 1 inch UNF, (not NF, which is 14TPI) which is what my father's old RandA lathe is and you may have to get a blank backplate or two and machine them to fit any chucks you want to use. My father's old RandA lathe worked happily enough with a 1 / 4 HP induction motor via a counter shaft similar to this RandA page 2

A 1 / 3 HP induction motor or something equivalent should be about the largest you would need though I would think.

Regards Nick.

Hi Nick,

I anticipated the need to provide a decent power train for my lathe; I found a (used!) Myford Vee-pulley with 4 diameters going for a song on eBay, it has a key fitting on 3/4" I.D.

I ordered a 3/4" round steel rod and I will get some pillow blocks to support it. I was admiring the countershaft arrangement and want to build something like the one belonging to your father, I just wondered if there are any drawings available?

Any info on this setup would be great.

ALSO…..

Possibly too many questions here below, but I really would be grateful if anyone feels inclined to answer?

* I have a load of gears that came with it but the I.D. is smaller than on the lathe… I wonder if they were from something else?

* Also there is a lever at the back, presumably to do forward/reverse but it 'locks up' the transmission when engaged, I do not think it is set up right, something is wrong here. Its not very clear in the photos but both cogs (either side of the lever) engage with cogs the other side at the same time, hence the lockup situation. Maybe I should remove on of the cogs? I can't figure it out.

* You will see it has a mechanism for operating the main screw with an escapement type arrangement. I have not seen this on other lathes. Any other photos/examples/notes on this mechanism?

*what type of tool holder accessory is best to use to replace the crude toolholder there is currently? I think I might be able to replace the vertical threaded rod to a longer one and get something from Banggood?

e.g. https://www.banggood.com/Machifit-250-000-Cuniform-GIB-Type-Quick-Change-Tools-Kit-Tool-Post-250-001-010-Tool-Holder-for-Lathe-Tools-p-1434251.html?akmClientCountry=GB&p=9B120818168716201801&custlixnkid=720029&cur_warehouse=UK&ID=515563

* One more thing, I tried getting the main shaft out but am a bit frightened to use much force on removing existing cogs… anyone?

Edited By James Tregaskis on 29/06/2021 17:33:10

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

The lever on the back that locks the transmission is not to reverse, but most probably to engage back gear. the reason that everything locks is that you have effectively engaged two gears, of different ratios at the same time.

You need to find how to disengage the bull wheel (The gear that is locked to the pulley ) so that the drive can be pulley to small gear pinion, to large gear on back gear shaft thence to small gear on back gear shaft and back ton the bull wheel and mandrel..

Most probably a grubscrew in the bottom of one of the vees in the pulley.

Probably safest to remove the grubscrew completely and put it in a safe place, rather than leave it in and chance it being thrown out at some time when back gear is being used.

Back gear will reduce the speed of the mandrel by a factor of about 6, and provide extra torque.

It is a very useful feature when working, or screw cutting upto a shoulder, in that it gives you more time to disengage the feed, or stop the mandrel by slackening the belt. Saves a lot of damaged tools and workpieces, ,believe me!

The mechanism to reverse the feed, probably by the Leadscrew will be the tumbler reverse. This is two identical pinions, meshed together and mounted on a lever which allows one pinion to drive the geartrain directly, or when the lever is moved, via the second gear (Which acts as an Idler and so reverses the direction of rotation of the gear train relative to the mandrel.

My preference is for the "old fashioned" 4 way toolpost. Reputed to be more rigid that a QCT. Not having one, cannot confirm or deny. But the more rigid the tool set up, the better things will be from the point of surface finish and accuracy.

Biased, 'cos I have one at the front and another at the back!

For a lathe of that age, HSS would be my advice on tooling. You learn how to grind tools, is cheaper than carbide. (The lathe was designed before carbide tooling became common place, so will lack the speed and rigidity to get the best out of it. Intended for heavy industrial machines where time is money )

My favourite HSS tool is the Tangential Turning Tool, either home made, (MEW has published at least two designs, in the past ) or the Diamond tool from Eccentric Engineering. With only one face to grind, sharpening is quick and easy.

A 1/4" toolbit cost about the same as a carbide insert and will outlast a single carbide insert. Plus, as I keep saying, you can regrind at 8:00 on a Saturday night, when a chipped carbide tip ceases to be of any use.

Before anyone complains of ignorant bias, I also use carbide tips, for roughing, boring and screwcutting!

The "escapement type arrangement" looks to be a detent for indexing, using a changewheel to provide the means of dividing.j

HTH

Howard

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi James, those gears as if they are Drummond screw cutting change gears for the leadscrew with the two holes in them for driving them. The gears that are locking together are backgears for screw cutting, when in use, you need to release the grub screw on the V pulley, to allow that to turn on the spindle, it will then drive the spindle at a slower speed through those back gears.

Regards Nick.

[Author]

Posts