Hammerite Smooth Paint

[Simon Williams 3Participant @simonwilliams3]

[Simon Williams 3Participant @simonwilliams3]

'evening all!

Been painting some bits today, and just didn't quite have enough paint in the tin. So I rummaged in the stores, and found an old tin about half full.

Went to dilute it to thin it enough to go through a spray gun, using Hammerite's own brand cleaning fluid/thinner, which pickled the paint causing it to clot in the gun. Looked like french dressing oil and water! On cleaning the gun I've had to use acetone to wash out the nozzle, as the cleaner just wouldn't touch it.

Is this old paint, nearly gone off/past its sell by date, or have Hammerite changed the recipe? Both paint tins look identical, labelled "Hammerite Direct to Rust Metal Paint Smooth". The thinner is "Hammerite Brush Cleaner and Thinners".

The thinner worked just fine with the tin of paint I bought just before Christmas, but the old stuff might well have been on the shelf for ten years.

Any clues?

Thanks in anticipation as always Simon

[vintagengineerParticipant @vintagengineer]

The new Hammerite is total crap!! If it says Finnigans on the tin this is the proper stuff. New owners and EU elf and safety twats have changed the formula. The old formula had chlorinated hydrocarbon in the mix which allowed it to dry in 15 minutes. I wouldn't paint the inside my dustbin with Hammerite!

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Depending on age, I would say.

Hunter paints were bought up and the hammerite became little more than an oil based paint. But, I believe, the formulation has been changed back to something more like the original – maybe the name has been sold on again, since?

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

its unlikely to be the original formulation as the thinner was basically carbon tetrachloride. Absolute conniption fit stuff for the elfins, EU crats et al. With some justification as its a considerable fire hazard and will de-fat skin tissues if abused. Version used as Finnigans thinners was modified, something like Genclene I think, so as to be adequately safe if not abused. Don't wash in it, don't breathe it basically. Recall discussing this way back with a safety rule enforcer 'crat type who went ballistic about Hammerite thinners being on sale to the general public.

Clive.

[vintagengineerParticipant @vintagengineer]

I was told that if you smoked near chlorinated hydrocarbon fumes you could be inhaling phosgene gas?

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

That's true, I had 2 chaps smoking near the paint stripper they were using and both fell off a scaffold, luckily onto camouflage nets. They suffered extreme headaches and breathing difficulties for a couple of days. This even though it was outside!

Clive

[davebParticipant @daveb17630]

Clive's comment about carbon tetrachloride being a fire hazard got me thinking. It must be almost 60 years since I handled the stuff as a schoolboy chemistry enthusiast but it stirred a memory or two. Carbon tetrachloride smells flammable but I'm not sure it is, I remember a project which involved using the stuff as a fire extinguisher. I could be wrong, it was a long time ago. Anyone know better?

Dave

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

daveb

Just checked wikipedia. You are right Carbon Tetrachloride is an effective fire extinguisher so its not of itself flammable. Big danger with fire is, as Clive Hartland says, production of phosgene gas when in contact with hot surfaces. Which is possibly even worse than simple burning. At lease you can usually see the flames.

Looking at the wiki entry its clearly very nasty stuff if abused but actually pretty safe if handled correctly. The quantity used in dry cleaning applications over the years must be enormous and dry cleaners aren't exactly into chemi-lab precautions.

Interesting to see the knee jerk "greenhouse gas" comment on wikipedia despite carbon tetrachloride having no significant absorption bands. Annoys me 'cos at one time I was an IR detection specialist.

Clive.

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

I think the idea with hammerite is to just take your time with it. You can't expect it to work in one coat like the past perhaps.

So you'll need atleast a few and a coat of varnish on top of that will probably see you right. It might not be the dogs parts but it's about on the street,

h+s isn't all bad,(especially when you're putting paint through a spraygun rather than a brush) it's when they tried to accident proof the office that it all started to go a bit haywire, daddio.

Michael W

Edited By Michael-w on 21/01/2017 22:37:17

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

> New owners and EU elf and safety twats have changed the formula.

> I was told that if you smoked near chlorinated hydrocarbon fumes you could be inhaling phosgene gas?

You don't suppose those two things could be connected?

Neil

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

The t'other thing as well is that people think stuff has changed even when it hasn't. It's just the nostalgia effect. Atleast in the case of hammerite, it has changed, but people think it's worse,

this might not be the actual case though, it may be that because it changed due to regulation, that people just think it's worse, even if they never compared one to the other.

Not really on topic but, as an example of this in action.. A while ago, Cadburys changed the shape of the squares to slightly curvy oblongs and people went nuts, accusing them of even changing the recipe, so they had to very quickly change back for their larger sizes and reassure people that nothing had changed in the recipe.

Cocacola tried to change their recipe, and people quickly stopped buying it and even protesting, this was a bit of a curveball for them because they had it on good market research authority that people thought their new one was better in blind testing.

Michael W

Edited By Michael-w on 21/01/2017 22:52:25

[Anonymous]

Removed as MW realised he'd posted rubbish and editted it.

Edited By Mick Berrisford on 21/01/2017 22:57:48

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Somehow I doubt the thinners were carbon tet. May have contained some, but far more likely it was trike, not carbon tet. 'Trike containing mixtures' have been largely banned by the elfs&co crew. A simple mistake, I am guessing, as many would not know the difference between the two. Both organic, volatile, solvents.

Trike is trichlorinated ethylene.

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

Carbon Tet highly flammable?

Yep, that's why the old brass Bus fire extinguishers were filled with it. Still have a couple of refills for modern(ish) units. Still one of the best degreasers.

Seems the Elfins had a birthday when schools started to give multiple choice answers to common sense problems.

Only needed telling once not to smoke over the Trike tank

Regards Ian.

[Alan Waddington 2Participant @alanwaddington2]

Not used the latest stuff, but AFAIK hammerite thinners used to be Xylene.

like most xylene based paints, you had to recoat when the first coat was touch dry, or leave for at least 48hrs otherwise it crizzled.

[Clive IndiaParticipant @cliveindia]

Simon, I think you should use the old type thinners with the old paint and new type thinners with the latest type. If you cannot comply with that e.g you do not have old thinners, you should throw the old paint away and try to get on with the new.

There are good alternatives to Hammerite which appears to be trading on a reputation gained by a former version.

[clogsParticipant @clogs]

Hi all,

surprised that nobody has mentioned the price hike……….

I've found that for the little extra I get my odd's and sod's galavanised…..unless u need a color of course……..

Clogs

[the artfull-codgerParticipant @theartfull-codger]

I used to buy original hammerite from finnegans of prudhoe years ago & the thinners was carbon tet [not inflammable,] we used to use it a lot in the glass trade[carbon tet that is!], the new paints not the same, hammer*hite, if you want to thin it I use cellulose thinners which I allways have done, I also think it's too brittle,it finishes nice of course.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

This previous thread may be of interest: **LINK**

http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=97920&p=1

MichaelG.

[Simon Williams 3Participant @simonwilliams3]

Well, thanks one and all for the pretty exhaustive analysis of what's going on here, and in particular for the link to the thread on the same subject going back to 2014 – thank you MichaelG.

I knew there was a difference between the old "proper hammer finish" Hammerite paint and the paint they branded as Smoothrite which was always a bit watery. I didn't know about the Volatile Organic Carbons Directive (see previous thread as per MichaelG's post).

I'm thinking that the answer is to give up on Hammerite, the suggestion of using any of the "Tractor enamels" is a good one, I've always had good results with those. Thinner for tracor enamels is Xylene based if I have understood it right, so it's only moderately nasty! Carcinogenic amongst other things.

To start another hare running, I'm unsure about spraying POR15. It's certainly good stuff, and I've used it by brush, but I thought it was cyano-acrylate based and you really can make yourself ill with that! The safety Data Sheet I've just found via MSC would frighten the bejasus out of you, but then the same is true for any of these.

Rgds as ever Simon

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